The Lass Word: Pettine Isn't Going Anywhere

Packers defensive coordinator likely to return next year.

He has been the lightning rod for fan angst and criticism. Whenever things begin to go south for the Green Bay Packers defense, coordinator Mike Pettine becomes the magnet for our frustration and disgust. Many Packer fans regard it as a foregone conclusion that Pettine will be fired after the season. Articles have been written about the list of candidates to replace him.

With all due respect, you are delusional.

Mike Pettine is going nowhere.   In today's NFL, you can win a Super Bowl with an elite offense and a defense that is just okay. And Green Bay's defense is the very definition of just okay. They rank around the middle of the league in just about every meaningful category. The Packers are 11th in yards allowed, 11th in net passing yards allowed, 14th in rushing yards allowed, 15th in points allowed, 11th in first downs allowed, and 11th in third down efficiency. They are 25th in 4th quarter points allowed, 22nd in opponent quarterback rating, tied for 10th in sacks, and 23rd in turnovers.

Sometimes it's deceptive to read too much into stats and rankings, but what these numbers tell you is that, on the whole, Mike Pettine's defense is not great, but not terrible. It's just okay. With it, Green Bay has been able to post a record of 9-3, second best in the NFC to date. The soft prevent that has drawn so much ire among the Packer faithful is a Pettine staple. While it can be maddening to watch, has it actually cost the team any victories? Of Green Bay's three losses, the only team that came from behind late in the game to win was the Colts, and that was in overtime because of a turnover by the offense, not the prevent defense.

There were signs the players were getting frustrated with the complexity of Pettine's schemes. After last Sunday's game against the Eagles, Za'darius Smith made reference to a meeting he, Preston Smith and Rashan Gary had with the defensive coaches, urging them to "keep it simple", and allow them to rush the passer more consistently. According to Z, the coaches acquiesced, and the result was seven sacks and an interception against the Eagles.  Smith indicated he had nothing but love for Pettine, saying he was "thankful we have coaches who truly care about the players." Head coach Matt LaFleur, while decrying some of the 4th quarter breakdowns, has regularly defended Pettine, and says, on the whole, the defense is doing a great job.

But can you win a Super Bowl with it?   After all, the mantra has always been "defense wins championships".   The Lombardi Packers with Ray Nitschke, Willie Davis, Dave Robinson, Herb Adderley, Willie Wood et al, Dallas had the Doomsday Defense, Pittsburgh had the Steel Curtain, Denver had the Orange Crush, Miami had the Killer B's, Seattle had the Legion of Boom, New England's defenses were perennial top ten.   Offense is for flash, but Big 'D' is still king, right?

Well, it's not your father's NFL anymore.   The Kansas City Chiefs redesigned the template last year.   They won the championship with a defense ranked 17th.   How is this possible?   First of all, the league has made a series of rules changes that make it nearly impossible to play aggressive, intimidating defense.   Secondly, the advent of the multi dimensional quarterback, the signal caller who functions as both  running back and  passer, has shifted the balance of power to offense.   The likes of Russell Wilson, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes,  Kyler Murray,  Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen have changed the game.   Observe how the mobility of Jalen Hurts altered the pace and effectiveness of the Eagles offense when he replaced Carson Wentz.

The result, just as the NFL was hoping for, is a blur of video game point totals and eye popping stat lines.   Defensive coordinators like Pettine can only scheme to slow down the whirlwind and hope his own offense can outscore the enemy.    Hence, the prevent tactics.   Sometimes the dam will spring leaks.   Did you see the Steelers defense collapse in the 4th quarter in Monday's loss to Washington?   The Browns nearly blew a 31 point lead as they hung on for dear life to edge the Titans.   If the playoffs were to begin today, Green Bay's total defense would rank ahead of fellow playoff teams Miami, Kansas City, Cleveland, Buffalo, Minnesota, Tennessee and Seattle.

As long as Aaron Rodgers has the Packers' offense humming at an elite level, I would be stunned to see Pettine get fired.   Watching his defense is a roller coaster ride to be sure, but you might as well strap in, because he's going to be here for awhile.

 

OUTTAKES

•  Sunday's game between the Vikings and the Tampa Bay Bucs could go a long way toward deciding Green Bay's eventual first round opponent in the playoffs.   They currently stand 7th and 6th respectively in the seedings.   If the Pack remains the number two seed, they would play #7.   Who would you rather face?   I'd take the Vikes.

•  The Lions will be much tougher to beat Sunday if they get two key injured players back.   Running back Deandre Swift has been out with a concussion, and receiver Kenny Golladay has missed seven games with a hip injury.   The status of both for the game is uncertain.

•  Of our four remaining opponents, most Packer fans are most concerned about Tennessee.   The game I am nervous about is the one just before that vs Carolina.   Despite their record, the Panthers have that physical style of defense that gives Green Bay trouble.   They have a mobile quarterback in Bridgewater, and an elite running back in McCaffery who can exploit our rush defense.   The Panthers will be looking to make a statement on national TV and might catch the Packers looking ahead to the Titans.

•  For some reason, the Packers always seem to get off to extremely slow starts at Ford Field.   In recent years Green Bay always seems to have to rally late to beat Detroit at their place.   Davante Adams confirmed that a point of emphasis in practice this week is to come out aggressively against the Lions and try to start faster.

•  The Packers have made the decision to limit their home attendance to family members only for the remainder of the schedule.   This effectively means the franchise will lose all of its ticket revenue for an entire season.   This would be a good time to support the team by purchasing Packer merchandise and clothing.    What's a better Christmas gift than a Packer sweatshirt?  

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Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.

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Comments (103)

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Minniman's picture

December 10, 2020 at 03:16 pm

Ken I think that there’s a metric that you are missing - pick to performance.

From the outset let me say that I’m not on any “fire x, y or z” person bandwagon.

However you do need to factor in the relative performance of the unit to the investment made in them.

...... else why not just load up on offensive weapons out of the early draft options?

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Leatherhead's picture

December 10, 2020 at 03:31 pm

We have our offense for next year. We have the starting line, three TEs, all of our WRs, and Dillon, Ervin, and Dexter in the backfield with Rodgers.

As regards weapons, we have enough weapons to be the #1 offense in the league. More weapons is just gilding the lilly.

The defense, despite the drumbeat from people who can't tell a decent defense from a bad one, has been average-ish in most categories. It'll probably finish about #10 or #11 in scoring defense, just behind last year's #9 finish. That doesn't mean they've been above average on every play. Hell, Brett Favre was an HOFer but that doesn't mean he didn't have plays where he didn't look like one.

But over the course of the season, the defense has held half our opponents to 21 or less and at home it's only giving up about 22/game. And people think that we should fire Pettine? Clueless, truly.

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Minniman's picture

December 10, 2020 at 03:58 pm

Noting and agreeing with all of your points Leatherhead - especially the point about overloading offensive positions with Alpha types that insist on being #1 in position and targets, it just doesn’t work.

I’m just saying that looking back at the last 4 years of recruitment the Packers have apportioned more to Defense than Offense and that this needs to be factored in.

Defensively, the Packers under Mike Pettine’s last 2 years have been a step up from the previous 3-4 of Dom Capers last years. That said, this year the Packers have gotten off to hot starts on Offense so in part have been able to dictate terms to their opponents, which affects things too (opponents haven’t been able\ willing to run the ground and pound attack on the Packers that the 49ers embarrassed them with in last years NFCCG).

I think that conversations would be markedly different if the Offense wasn’t proportionally over-achieving this year (relative to its investment).

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Leatherhead's picture

December 10, 2020 at 07:24 pm

I dispute your point that the offense has overachieved relative to the investment. We spend way more money on offense. We spent a high pick for Jenkins, but there’s a lot of well paid vets there, too. Adams makes a chunk.

In fact, Rodger, Adams, and Bakhtiari make more money combined than the entire defense.

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Minniman's picture

December 11, 2020 at 03:52 pm

8 of the 12 possible top 3 draft picks of the last 4 drafts went to the defensive side of the ball. I’m respectfuly not seeing how you can dispute that.

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Packers2020's picture

December 10, 2020 at 05:08 pm

I hope you were sarcastic with all this. If not, you are not accurate.

Linsley will be gone, Jones will be gone, maybe Tonyan, and maybe Williams. Ervin may also be gone. This O will look a ton different next year.

Our D has given up 25 per game, not 22 per game. Only four games we gave up under 22 points. All four were in the bottom 10 offensively. We are in the bottom 5 at giving up TDs in the red zone. That's bad defense.

I suggest you do your research before you spout off a bunch of nonsense.

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Coldworld's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:34 pm

Why will Tonyan be gone? He is an RFA. He will be here.

Linsley’s replacement us already in the roster by the looks of it. The only question therefore is likely to be who partners Dillon at RB, and who comes in in the draft. Deguara will be back, so we may see how the H back role expands things.

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realitybytez's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:56 pm

because the packers will not be willing/able to match what some other team will offer him. he's currently rated as one of the top tight ends in the nfl. with the cap decreasing next year, we simply can't afford to pay him what he's worth.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:24 pm

Tonyan will bee extended. The CAP will be adjusted for this season's economic shock, they have reserves, not seeing a dramatic decline in CAP. It would be suicide for Park Avenue. They're still making money on the televised games and merchandising.

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flackcatcher's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:52 pm

Never underestimate the NFL doing the wrong thing. Owner and players ego, combine with the Goodell and his minions, will always trip over themselves taking the short term gain over the long term gain. (That said, it was the union who forced the owners into the Covid-19 protocols and saved the season)

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Leatherhead's picture

December 10, 2020 at 08:51 pm

We’ve held six teams to 21 or less.

The Packers are giving up 22 points/ game AT HOME, which is where we’ll be in the playoffs.

Read more carefully. What I’m clearly stating is that if the Packer offense can score 30+ without multiple turnovers then the defense is plenty good enough to win with. We’ve done it all year.

I’m also saying that NEXT YEARS offense is already here. Rodgers, the line, all the receivers, the TEs will be back. It’ll be difficult to replace the production of Jones/Williams, but I don’t see how we end up keeping them. It’ll be Dillon and Ervin and somebody else next year, but everybody else is the same.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 08:45 pm

Dexter will not be on the team in 2021. They will pick up a couple more RBs who are comfortable learning a playbook.

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Leatherhead's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:08 pm

I’m assuming he’ll be on the 90 man squad with a chance to compete.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:22 pm

There is a great group of RBs coming in the 2021 draft. He had his chances.

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dobber's picture

December 11, 2020 at 09:37 am

Agreed in that I'm not counting on Dexter Williams being a revelation for this team. If he comes back and is effective in filling an important role, great. If not? Next man up...

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 11, 2020 at 06:25 pm

Weber is better and Patrick may surprise if he can recover from injuries.

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ralm47's picture

December 11, 2020 at 11:46 am

Half of our opponents are losers . Average at best.

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sws105's picture

December 10, 2020 at 05:38 pm

Dolphins won their Super-bowls with the “no name” defense.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 08:59 pm

Nick Buoniconti, Jake Scott, Dick Anderson, Stanfill, Manny Fernandez pro bowlers ALL PROs, two in the HOF

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TarynsEyes's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:26 pm

You meant a no nickname defense, like the Steel Curtain, right?

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:47 pm

Closest nickname the 'Killer Bees", for their LBs....

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Since'61's picture

December 11, 2020 at 09:11 am

If our defense was as good as Miami’s “No Name” defense we we would also have an undefeated season. Thanks, Since ‘61

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KenEllis's picture

December 10, 2020 at 08:01 pm

About this quote ... "In today's NFL, you can win a Super Bowl with an elite offense and a defense that is just okay" ...

Does the author have access to the internet?

If so, he might want to look up the FACT that every Super Bowl Champ since 2011 has finished in the top 10 when it comes to scoring defense.

With all the resources the Pack have devoted to the D their D should be a top 10 unit.

It is not.

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PewAuKeeFan's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:07 pm

According to the talking heads, with all the lack of proper investment (no WR in the draft, no big name free agent WR signed) the Packers' offense should be in the bottom 10.

It is not.

Just saying...

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ralm47's picture

December 11, 2020 at 11:51 am

What does that have to do with the this bad defense?

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CoachDino's picture

December 11, 2020 at 04:26 am

That's an interesting stat and one that may have some real correlation but in the authors defense that is a bit of apples and oranges heck add cherry picking since I'm on a fruit theme.... His point was overall, you have found 1 stat out of dozens. I still think you have a great find to offer some balance.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:27 pm

I'll go to Vegas with the if Pettine isn't going anywhere prop, then the Packers will not be going anywhere near a SB.
Dom gave the Pack the last SB. I went to the final game @ Lambeau vs the Bears to get in the dance. The D drove that win and the string through
Philly and Atlanta. Hell, even the Bear game. Nick Collins with the pick six.

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Lphill's picture

December 10, 2020 at 03:22 pm

None of the next 4 games are easy , the Packers have to be ready from the get go , although the Lions beat the Bears last week thanks to a strip sack on Trubisky , Stafford can still put up some big numbers, as far as Pettine and the defense lets hope no more 2_or 3 man fronts.

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Bearmeat's picture

December 10, 2020 at 03:23 pm

Ken:

I'm sorry man, but I think you're way off.

1. The Panthers defense isn't physical. It sucks. It's slow and bad. Plain and simple. Their dangerous players are CMC, their WRs and Teddy dealing.

2. If the defense bombs out in the playoffs again, MLF had BETTER fire Pettine, or I'm going to get Capers whiplash.

3. The whole idea that you can win a championship without good defense is false 9/10 years. So the Chiefs did it last year with a historic offense. Big deal. Go back at the last 10 SB champs and see how many had lower than top 12 DVOA scores on defense at a minimum.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:04 pm

Reviewing the SB Game, the KC defense got the key stops in the second half to get the ball back in Mahomes hands to propel the win. If they fold, Garoppolo would have been the MVP.

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CoachDino's picture

December 11, 2020 at 04:38 am

I might catch some flack for this but IMO the offense had a lot to do with the loss in the NFC finals. Yes, they made it to the NFC finals with that very defense. They just ran up against a better team. SF offense last year reminds me of GBs offense this year. They put points up on any team regardless of its defensive rating.

When the O sputtered it put an onus on the D, it was over. No defense was going to hold them and certainly not GB's with all the issues they had and still have to some extent.

Packers scored last year much like teams score against the Packers this year. Against a prevent Defense.

PS - I think the author makes the point about the shift in rules that have led it to be a much more offense driven league so while I see the points made on the Packers D and many are legit the probability of winning w/o a top D has certainly been increased.

It's not a all or nothing scenario it's simply a shift in weighted importance. If the packers play terrib;e D they will go nowhere. Of they play to the level they have shown less peaks and valleys they have a good chance. Its why they play the games, as they say.

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ralm47's picture

December 11, 2020 at 12:00 pm

That game was not to be for Green Bay, but their bad defense made it worse then it should have been.

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TarynsEyes's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:38 pm

"After last Sunday's game against the Eagles, Za'darius Smith made reference to a meeting he, Preston Smith and Rashan Gary had with the defensive coaches, urging them to "keep it simple", and allow them to rush the passer more consistently. According to Z, the coaches acquiesced, and the result was seven sacks and an interception against the Eagles."

How many here expected less against the worst OL in the NFL. Simple is all that was needed and perhaps the meeting was to have Pettine understand that very thing, and luckily he did, apparently.

However, will simple simply be enough against better than the Eagles OL? The question isn't whether simple against poor needs to be talked about with the DC and installed, the question remains still, whether Pettine can plug those leaks that have us worried against the more talented and abler run offenses.

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Coldworld's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:38 pm

Last week alone proves nothing, I agree. Bad O line and poor QB playing catch up, so we never really had to deal with consistent running plays against us. That combines to make it a pretty favorable match up for our D.

If it returns out to be a trend, great, but at this point it’s just as likely to be our last opponent.

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CoachDino's picture

December 11, 2020 at 04:46 am

I have a simple theory that has been proven to apply to all teams less the occasional deviance.

Defenses play better against weaker offenses. Injuries, match-ups and human factors are all variables. So tough to argue that the D should of done better than the norm last week. I thought they did and helped keep the team in the game when the O only scored 10pts.

To be fair it works both ways so when they play teams with good QBs/RBs/Offenses no one should be expecting the best stats. Tampa,Mnn and Indy are all good offenses.

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ralm47's picture

December 11, 2020 at 12:09 pm

WE need to expect better, period.

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TheVOR's picture

December 11, 2020 at 08:59 am

Losing Green didn't help, neither did losing Winn. Also the authors silly notion that essentially defense doesn't matter in winning a super bowl is just ridiculous. All it's going to take is the version of defense that last faced the Vikings, and this will be over.

In 2011, one of the most prolific offenses in NFL history couldn't overcome the hideous defense Capers and Thompson fielded that year, and is the perfect example of how and why history will likely repeat itself.

This team is fun to watch when it's dismantling mediocre football teams, but the Bucs and Viking losses loom as a large indicator of what happens when your defense is "This Defense". There are no Bums in the playoffs, you're needing to make a run at the best teams, the most balanced teams in the NFL.

Been saying it all year, just like I did in 2011, this team won't go deep in the playoffs.

Final word, still a very entertaining Packers team to watch play, they're in virtually every game. They have some sloppy Special Teams play to resolve, but they're at least fun to watch..

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dobber's picture

December 11, 2020 at 09:36 am

"Also the authors silly notion that essentially defense doesn't matter in winning a super bowl is just ridiculous."

That paraphrasing of Lass' statement is disingenuous. He never said that defense doesn't matter, nor did he say that it's "essentially" unimportant. His relevant statements....

"In today's NFL, you can win a Super Bowl with an elite offense and a defense that is just okay....The Kansas City Chiefs redesigned the template last year. They won the championship with a defense ranked 17th. "

There's nothing there that says defense is irrelevant or that it's likely that a team with a bottom-feeder defense (the extreme example of "defense doesn't matter") is going to win the whole thing. What he said was an elite unit can overcome an average one, and that KC outlined a path to a SB win with the dominant offense approach. We've seen this in the past, but usually with an elite defense and a ho-hum (Trent Dilfer) offense. There have been many near-misses for one-dimensional teams in SBs, too. This kind of path is not new. It's also what he Packers are counting on.

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Denver's picture

December 10, 2020 at 03:44 pm

Ken, I hope you are right, but as someone around here is fond of saying, "Lotta ballgame left"....

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stockholder's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:08 pm

Without sounding ungrateful. The Bitching won't stop until he does leave. BG isn't going to sign King. Which means No DL again. The mocks already have us taking a CB. Gute wanted Rodgers out the door. He refused to take a ILB and WR. Gute has refused to draft a return specialist. Something Even Lombardi, wolf and TT knew you needed for field position. Travis Williams? No Howard? No Cobb? And just look at his trading of Randall and Davis. That gave us Nothing. We went through a Tagge and Campbell, yet Love is BG answer. So were going to have to Keep Pettine and Gute knows it. The 3 man front is staying. Until Rodgers is off this team.

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fastmoving's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:33 pm

What.....EVEN Lombardi, Wolf knew?????????
But its on me, how can I still read your stuff.

Love could be very well the answer, if we need him some day. And when a pretty solid contra indicator like you said otherwise, we can not be in a better place.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:09 pm

Tend to agree with your theme, but Rodgers isn't going anywhere else unless he wants to.

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Ferrari-Driver's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:13 pm

A few decades ago, the Packers had a defensive backfield coach and he was terminated, apparently because the players were not able to implement his defensive scheme which in comparison previous Packers defensive coaches was more complex. Consider the Patriots defense which is sophisticated but I do believe Belichick is cognizant of the importance of a player's ability to learn and not repeat mistakes and may pass on a potential player who may be more athletic for one which is mentally capable of carrying out his defensive plans which are regarded by many as being the most effective in the NFL. This comment is certainly not meant to be a knock on my favorite team, the Green Bay Packers, but merely meant to point out some of the considerations that may be addressed in forming a successful football team.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:17 pm

He likes veteran players for a reason. A great article in The Sporting News, years ago, print edition with interviews of Bill and Jim Johnson. Both echoed this theme: they wanted intelligent players preferably with leadership skills ( as in College team Captains) who were football players. The NFL demands decisions to be made and executed in a matter of seconds. By football players, they meant people to be in position to make the tackle or create the turnover. The name of the game is to control the piece of leather. The philosophy of retreat gives you a defense that never showed in the NFCCH game.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:40 pm

Secondly, You may be referring to sherman throwing Ed Donatelle under the bus for the 4th and 26 play. Donatelle had pressure called and sherman had overidden the call to go soft, prevent. The series of failed calls after he chose not to go for it on 4th and one with supposedly the best O line in the league and Ahman Green who could run through a wall; Larry Beightol was furious and called him out later. With Donatelle, the Pack always had DBs playing the ball and picking off passes and LBs stripping for fumbles.
Still one of the worst moves in Packer History when Wolf set that guy up to be the HC.

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Swisch's picture

December 11, 2020 at 07:17 pm

To borrow from Mark Twain, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, which can be the worst of lies.
Most of us see the problem with our own eyes -- a soft and disorganized and ineffectual defense that never seems to make substantial changes or adjustments or improvements.
What keeps our defense from looking even worse is that our offense is so great that it somewhat covers for the ineptitude on the other side of the ball.
Can anyone think of a more humiliating beatdown than was done to our defense in the playoffs last year against the 49ers? It was perhaps the worst defensive performance ever in the history of the playoffs in the NFL -- not just the points but the manhandling.
That came after the heart-thumping, mind-addling near collapse of the defense in the playoff game the week before against the Seahawks.
This season, it seems our defense continues to look soft and disorganized and ineffectual just about any time we face a decent offense.
Didn't the Vikings score on their first four possessions with dominating drives to put the game away? Didn't our defense blow a 28-3 halftime lead against the Colts? Didn't even the lowly Eagles in our last game hold the ball for more than 11 out of 15 minutes in the first quarter, then later in the game allow a rookie quarterback to dismantle them for a long drive that ended with a touchdown pass on 4th-and-18?
To borrow from Vince Lombardi, what in the hell is going on out there.
How many agonizing and embarrassing outings must we endure before a change is made at defensive coordinator.
Thing is, we seem to have some good players on defense who are being severely under-coached. How many Casey Haywards and Micah Hydes are there on our current roster who will have to go elsewhere to find their potential?
The kind of thinking in this article is madness that is misguided at best, and at worst an insult to our intelligences as seasoned fans of the Packers.
Or perhaps I'm the one who is crazy.
Anybody, please let me know why you are confident in our defense to go forward in a way that is pleasing to you, and worthy of all of us as loyal and savvy fans of the Packers?

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freddisch's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:47 pm

You nailed it. If it looks and walks like a duck, it’s a duck

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Tundraboy's picture

December 11, 2020 at 09:19 am

And a duck floats......She's a witch!!!!

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Since'61's picture

December 12, 2020 at 11:28 am

Cookie for Tundra! Thanks, Since ‘61

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Spock's picture

December 11, 2020 at 10:24 am

-or a platypus. :)

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TarynsEyes's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:53 pm

"Most of us see the problem with our own eyes -- a soft and disorganized and ineffectual defense that never seems to make substantial changes or adjustments or improvements."

Uh-Oh, you should be hearing from someone who fancies himself as a Clint Eastwood movie title for daring to use your eyes and not stats only.

"Anybody, please let me know why you are confident in our defense to go forward in a way that is pleasing to you, and worthy of all of us as loyal and savvy fans of the Packers?"

I'm not part of this group, but allow to me to offer the basis of their thinking. It's all about stats and rankings for them.

In the movie Shooter, with Mark Wahlberg, his FBI agent partner says to his boss, 'Maybe I should wait for the report to come out, read it, and then remember what I saw.'

This I fear is a custom for some here, as the only speak they seem to know is that of stats and rankings.

I agree with your post.

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HighPlainsDrifter's picture

December 11, 2020 at 09:07 am

The interesting thing is that you take pride in being uninformed. Your type prefers not to rely on facts, most likely because you are incapable of understanding them.

That is why you believe that there was massive voter fraud, when in fact there has not been one verified case of such fraud. But please, keep on believing those conspiracy theories about boxes of fake ballots being pulled out from under tables. Alex Jones will be happy to take more of your money for his iodine toothpaste and fake water purifiers.

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Swisch's picture

December 11, 2020 at 11:02 am

Right, we should just mindlessly believe that there was certainly no significant fraud in this election, even with all of the unrequested mail-in ballots that were scattered across the countryside. Oh, and that broken water pipe in Georgia caused a real flood that threatened to drown election workers in a deluge of death.
Ideally, your comment would have been scrubbed by a moderator as too political before I was unfortunate to read it. Since it's still up, I'll say that your words about politics undermine your credibility in general.
Plus, you come off as just plain nasty. It's comments like yours that remind us that we as humans do have a dark side that can result in such things as rigged elections.
It seems a more reasonable position would be to want to at least investigate such incidents as the one in Atlanta on video where it appears there is something really shady going on.
By not even wanting to look into concerns about voter fraud with so many credible allegations, it seems you are the closed-minded one who is blindly believing the establishment news media with a naively cultish faith.
Meanwhile, damn the tens of millions of us deplorables who don't automatically side with you and your ideological comrades of elitist superiority.

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HighPlainsDrifter's picture

December 12, 2020 at 04:06 am

It seems that the Supreme Court unanimously disagrees with you Swisch. If there are "so many credible allegations", why did not a single court find any instance of fraud? Wait a minute, let me guess: There was some vast conspiracy among the federal and state courts in Georgia, Arizona, Pennsylvania, and Michigan to validate a "rigged election"

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Since'61's picture

December 12, 2020 at 11:56 am

Swisch - you should volunteer to work as a vote counter during an election. In fact every American who is eligible to vote should be required to participate in election work at least once during their lifetime. It should be a requirement like jury duty.
First off it would fill a need for manpower which is usually lacking during elections.
But more importantly you would realize that it is virtually impossible to commit massive election fraud that is being claimed by trump.
I have worked as a vote counter and the process is extremely difficult to compromise. First off it would require people from both parties and it would require officials at every level of local, county and state levels.
Yes, mistakes have been made but usually only affecting a few hundred votes at the most. Not the thousands of votes that would be required to change the outcome of this election or any other. Secondly, voter fraud has been attempted in numerous local elections over the years and the perpetrators have always been caught. Why? Because the process works.
Third, the US has now held 59 presidential elections in its history and not once has had any level or evidence of massive voter fraud.
Fourth, trump lost the popular vote in 2016 why is it so difficult to understand that he lost the popular vote again in 2020. In fact since HW Bush in 1988 the Republican candidate has only won the popular vote once in 2004 by W. Bush. Fraud was never claimed in any of those elections.
Fifth, if there was massive fraud are we also saying that all of the down ballot elections should be thrown out. If yes, this would erase numerous Republican victories.
Sixth, where is the evidence? 55 out 56 court cases have either been thrown out of court a or not even admitted on the respective dockets, mostly by Republican/conservative judges. Are we saying that the entire judicial system is part of this fantasy conspiracy???
Seventh, just because we don’t like the results of an election doesn’t mean it is fraudulent. This is not a matter of trump versus Democrats, or trump versus Biden, this a matter of trump versus democracy and fortunately for all of us democracy has won.
In my lifetime we have not had one political candidate from either party who has been worth supplanting our democracy for and hopefully we never will. These people all come and go with little or no concern about the impacts on people’s lives. Not one of them has cared about us as much as some of us haves cared about them. What is important is that the concepts of America live on and that we retain our right to vote. So far, thankfully our courts have upheld that right.
Thanks, Since ‘61

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HighPlainsDrifter's picture

December 13, 2020 at 04:33 am

"the tens of millions of us deplorables who don't automatically side with you and your ideological comrades of elitist superiority."

You have been conned by swindlers preying on your insecurity of thinking of yourself as a "common person". You have bought into the lie that "common people" are under attack by some ethereal group of "elites".

You have been deceived into believing that education is a bad thing. "Elite" universities are where vital discoveries are made that improve the human condition. In contrast, "schools" such as Liberty and Hillsdale College contribute nothing to society. Even worse is the proliferation of fake K-12 schools teaching children rubbish such as humans existing with the dinosaurs.

Charlatans like the Falwells, the Dr. Dobson's, etc. have been conning people for decades. They have used your concern about hot button issues such as prayer in public schools, posting of the Ten Commandments, and the alleged "war on Christmas" to prop up their exorbitant lifestyles. In reality, these con artists do not care about you or the issues that are important to you.

There is nothing wrong with being "a common man". The problems arise when you think that some cadre of "elites" exist who are plotting to dominate or destroy you. You need to understand that there is no such thing as a "New World Order".

Use the good sense afforded you as a normal individual. Reject the lies being peddled to you by those who are only after your money. Send your children to real schools. If you want them to have an education in a Christian environment choose a traditional Catholic school, instead of some fundamentalist wacko "school" that offers nothing. Attend a traditional church, give your money to established charities. Do some real good.

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BAMABADGER's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:53 pm

Agree 100%, the Packer D is undisciplined, soft, and demonstrate piss poor tackling fundamentals.

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fastmoving's picture

December 10, 2020 at 05:16 pm

Heeeee crybabies, dramaqueens, armchair wannebeeees. Just try the new Colin Kaepernick icecream. Comes out today. So you can relax a little bit. Good time ahead. D gets better, can be good enought.
Someday you can even try to read and maybe even understand a statistic. But be carefull, its something like science......
But I give you the "insult to our intelligences", That was a good one. Really good one.

A 9 to 3 team (with some great football) in a season most of you dramaqueens thought would not start at all is good enough for me all the time. With the NFC north wraped up already and a chance for the NFC nr.1. The orange prisoner would say "the best season ever, of all time, since they pump up the footballs, that human mankind ever saw . Even in the my parallel universe".

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Tundraboy's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:13 pm

.

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Nate-1980's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:16 pm

Swisch couldn’t have said it better, poetry my boy ha

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SpikeHyzer's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:52 pm

They're young and getting better.
Unlike a guy like you who doesn't understand either the game of football, the way modern offenses and defenses operate in a time of massive change, or the growth and development curves of players, I am a former athlete who respects the process, knows that the scheme is sound, and trusts in the GM to get good players and for them to ultimately become comfortable in that scheme.

It doesn't happen overnight.

There's no talent gap. There's no coaching gap. The D isn't soft, weak, undisciplined or lacking in athletes.

You simply don't understand it when mistakes are made or when the other team makes good plays and you certainly don't know the scheme or assignments to the point that you can assess it or lay blame.

You're just another idiot mouthing off about things you don't understand. You are the one who is crazy and the D is getting better and is peaking at the right time and is good enough to win the Super Bowl.

It's not an illusion. ALL of the good defenses are coming back to the mean right now as they play bad teams, and the Packer D, which has mostly faced GREAT offenses, is also coming back to the mean with good performances against weaker teams.

And that's how it works for everyone.

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TarynsEyes's picture

December 10, 2020 at 07:09 pm

"and the Packer D, which has mostly faced GREAT offenses,"

You can't be serious. Are you referencing another season? What Great offenses have the Packers played against? Please list.

Here's my list of Great offenses this season GB played.
1) ???????

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Swisch's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:36 pm

My impression is we've caught some teams at a point in the season when they were not at their best -- such as the Saints without Michael Thomas.

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TarynsEyes's picture

December 10, 2020 at 11:46 pm

Agree, and I'll add the timing of opponents misfortunes this season are near a repeat of last seasons when playing certain teams. Both seasons will benefit with a pretty record, but can possible end in the same fashion also, or earlier, if not the number one seed.

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SpikeHyzer's picture

December 11, 2020 at 03:58 pm

Tampa Bay and New Orleans have HOF QBs. That's a great offense, even if they didn't play well that day.
Minnesota has a real difference maker of a back. We made the QB beat us.
The 49ers are rounding into form as the best team in their division after a rocky start. It was not a horrible offense. Texans have an elite QB.
The only bad loss to a bad offense was to the Dolts (and it was a complete fluke of a game that the Pack wins by 14 every time they replay it).

This D is fine. It's getting better. It reminds me of the Super Bowl team of street free agents....

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Swisch's picture

December 10, 2020 at 09:32 pm

Hi Spike, I actually hope that, for the most part, you're right.
I genuinely hope that the defense is gradually getting better and better in time to be a legitimate force for the playoffs.
I may be somewhat crazy, and I may be missing lots of things on the field.
However, I don't think I'm an idiot in thinking that -- all too often -- opposing receivers are running free on third downs to gain just enough yards for first downs; that opposing quarterbacks have just enough time against our rush to find those open receivers; and that in between running backs gash our front lines with apparent ease for long gains.
I think a lot of other fans see pretty much the same things.
While others are better than me at understanding why things are going wrong on the field, the resulting breakdowns on defense seem rather obvious, and seem to happen over and over and over again.
At some point, whatever the intricacies of the game, we as fans need to see results -- if only for our own physical and mental health ;-).
As good as is the offense for the Packers, it may not get on the field enough in any given game if the defense allows too many sustained drives (e.g. the first quarter against the Eagles, the second half against the Colts, most of the game against the Vikings).
In life in general it seems, there are times when highly intelligent experts miss things that many of us average folks can gather by ordinary observation and common sense.
P.S. It's fun to talk sports, and I appreciate the comments, even the couple that disagree. I also appreciate the "likes" as supportive -- especially in cases such as this, when I'm going out on a limb, and even doubt myself at least a little.
What I strive for even in my uncertainty is sincerity. I say things to the best of my knowledge and understanding in the best way I can.
I try to be open to others in their opinions, and even glad for differing points of view given constructively -- as a way of learning and growing, and an opportunity for good camaraderie.
My best to all the fans and staff at CheeseheadTV, as well as Mike Pettine.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 11, 2020 at 10:51 am

Here's a learning curve for you, K.C. was walloped by Big Bad Bill on their home field. He ran the ball down their throats. AndyReid fired the D coordinator and they started moving people out like Houston and Ford.
They brought in Spags and his 4-2/flex Defense, the Honey Badger, Breeland and Clark to fortify the D. Bagged Pennel later when Gutedkunst let him walk (330 # DT), Drafted Kalen Saunders another 330# DT, Thornhill a rookie, safety contributed right away and the net result was a SB win. One year turnaround not the 3-5 year plan to nowhere. They did not settle for status quo.

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BAMABADGER's picture

December 11, 2020 at 12:14 pm

I'll have what SpikeHazer's smoking......

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HighPlainsDrifter's picture

December 11, 2020 at 09:17 am

"Seeing the problem with your own eyes" leads to inaccurate conclusions; as opposed to incorporating data into the opinion you are forming from what you see. Science deniers are the people who eschew facts.

If we operated solely under the eye test we would still believe that the earth is flat. Of course, we do have an unfortunate part of the population, such as Taryn, who believes that the dinosaurs and humans existed together.

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CoachDino's picture

December 11, 2020 at 06:17 pm

One thinks statistics have come a long way since Mark Twain. Though your point is taken. Statistics are just a tool and if it's the right tool and a quality tool great, if it's the wrong tool or not a quality tool it most likely just makes things worse. Statistics should always be used in conjunction with observations. In Many instances statistics are derived from observations. There are reasons Sports teams and really most businesses rely so much more on statistics, when used correctly they give you a huge advantage.

Poker is a fantastic example of that, when probability/statistics were implemented at a higher level by the young guns they really took over the game. The guys who didn't adapt were left behind, most likely broke. These veterans observed thousands of hands but w/o statistics to provide perspective/probability and roi figures its not a robust enough process.

Statistics can say two different things when quantifying a single performance, that is very true. People can observe the same thing and have two completely different opinions as well.

Anytime one goes to an extreme you lose, those that can determine the correct balance and be using the best stats and human element will come out on top.

I miss the days of simplicity but with so much information now available if its your neck on the line you can't afford to be so complacent.

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Demon's picture

December 10, 2020 at 05:06 pm

Rex Ryan used to claim that in any meeting room he was in Pettine was the smartest person in the room. That being said, why did Z, P Smith and Gary have to go to Pettine and ask him to change the coverages etc that he calls? I would think the coach would be more in tune with what works and what doesnt than the players.

Im undecided on whether Pettine should be back next year. If the D plays well the rest of the way absolutely. But if once again we get to see AR standing on the sidelines with his arms crossed, watching the D get steamrolled in the playoffs, I dont believe Pettine will be back.

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Tundraboy's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:14 pm

Maybe it was just him and Rex.

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Johnblood27's picture

December 11, 2020 at 10:47 am

Now, that's funny!

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Gee's picture

December 11, 2020 at 03:45 pm

Man you win the internet for me today, that quote was pure gold. Was having a crap day, but you turned it around thnak you.

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4thandinches's picture

December 11, 2020 at 01:35 pm

I honestly don't see the problem with the players communicating with their coaches regarding what schemes and plays they're most comfortable running. My guess is this happens with every functional team every year. In the off-season we'll probably read all about how MLF and Rodger's relationship and communication took the offense to new heights... I just think the firw the coaches crowd are blowing up this innocuous tidbit to advance the narrative that Pettine is clueless.

That said, I agree that Pettine's future likely depends upon if there's an embarrassing defensive display in the playoffs. I'm ok with that!

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CoachDino's picture

December 12, 2020 at 03:00 am

Really, the perception is Petinne had it wrong but the players straightened him out? Thats not a serious argument. What evidence does one have that these were changes that drove a sustained improvement. What exactly were the changes? how often were they used? what was the specific result? Is it the only variable that impacted the change. Or does ones just think they know more than anyone w/o knowing and detailed information.
Heck, Much talk has been around how last weeks improvement was driven by the weakness of the opponents offensive line as well as the score being so close later into the game. If the statement is meant to be funny I get it, the reply response really was but the idea that the players are smarter than the coach is just silly, and if serious one must have a great sense of themselves having football knowledge above and beyond the professionals to make it.

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ricky's picture

December 10, 2020 at 04:44 pm

The Packers are going to keep Pettine. Yuck, but OK. But can we at least get rid of Mennenga and hire a really good ST's coach? One who will look at some borderline players and say, "Maybe that guy's not a starter or even good backup, but he can run fast, hit hard and plays like his hair is on fire. I can use him on punt/kick returns."

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 11, 2020 at 10:17 am

Sp teams starts with the GM getting bad ass players and some speed. The Head Coach has to set the tone if things go awry and make changes in season to the scheme. No time for reassessment when the season is over.
LeFleur has to straighten this bullshit out, now.

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pacman's picture

December 10, 2020 at 05:03 pm

I think everybody turned on Pettine due to the 3 man rush and crazy soft d. It just seems to make no sense playing so far off the line to give opponents easy short yardage first downs.
(That, and laying a bunch of dud games last year and this year. That was on the offense too. )
I don't know what was so complicated that the players had to ask to keep it simple. The offense could be complicated but the defense just sets up and reacts to the offense.

Pettine isn't going anywhere this season, but I think it is his job to lose for next year.
So, stay tuned.

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wildbill's picture

December 10, 2020 at 05:24 pm

Ok I’m not happy about 2 and 3 man rushes and I don’t break down each games film but there are dozens of times, during the season, a very good defensive call was made and a missed tackle, which could have been a loss, allowed a positive play or even a first down. I’m not totally happy with Pettine but some good tackling and being assignment sure could have made a big difference. The soft zone is maddening due to the fact we have two very capable man coverage CBs, but at times our defense has played well. Overall I feel if we tackled better we could be 11-1( the Tampa game was a total beat down)

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Nate-1980's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:02 pm

We should use the browns defense vs the Titans as a measuring stick haha wtf ?? Makes sense.. We fans that think Mikey PP should get canned are probably delusional to think so.. Since I have no faith in the FO to make a coaching decision promptly, and Matt L seems hamstrung to do it..When the head coach and players( really the players) have to tell ole Mikey PP to change his approach, there’s definitely something wrong going down here.. I hope they fire him, they should, but I won’t be surprised in the least when it doesn’t happen.. I’m just wondering what blunder he comes up with to send them packing come playoff time..Wish it were different, this teams too talented..

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HighPlainsDrifter's picture

December 12, 2020 at 03:40 am

"Mikey PP? Wow, that is really mature. Is it possible for you to make a point that does not contain a reference to a bodily function?

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Nate-1980's picture

December 12, 2020 at 04:59 pm

I never claimed to be a mature person, and think it’s highly overrated anyway..:) I do think it’s a better approach than calling everyone morons and idiots etc.. Here’s some new ones for your repertoire that I enjoy, bird brain and dullard, you’re welcome.. Oh yeah poo poo pee pee ha..:)

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HighPlainsDrifter's picture

December 13, 2020 at 03:25 am

Dullard and bird brain are good ones, appreciate the suggestions.

Please go back and review my comment that seems to offend you so. I did not refer to "everyone" as morons, idiots, etc. Those accurate descriptions were reserved for those people who spouted off uninformed opinions regarding AR's contract. My comment was specifically designed to draw out those people, and that purpose was achieved through the replies by Demon and 13Time.

Our goal here should be to be better than the mass of stupidity that prevails in the comment section at PFT. Having to endure the knee jerk "mega QB contract means team can't sign other players" commenters detracts from intelligent conversation about the Packers.

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egbertsouse's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:05 pm

The writer is correct. Nobody is going to be fired. In Murphy’s business model all that is required is to make the playoffs and get that extra revenue for your townhouse construction and theme parks. If that happens nobody is going to rock the boat. The only time people get fired in GB is when they don’t make the playoffs for two consecutive years. Then a couple of heads roll. Even then, much of the dead wood hangs around; for example, Mike Pettine. The Packer front office knows that the only reason the defense isn’t in the bottom of the league is because of all the crap teams they have played this year. And do you know what? They don’t care.

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4thandinches's picture

December 11, 2020 at 01:26 pm

I'm having a hard time getting on board with your convictions. Perhaps an example would help me? Which Superbowl winning team in the history of the NFL had a front office dictate to the head coach to fire a coordinator midseason when they were in 2nd place in the conference? Thats what you need to see happen in order to convince you the front office wants to win, instead of just build theme parks, right? Geesh...

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Tundraboy's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:11 pm

No. Not unless he brings the second coming of Nitschke back along with him and a great ST coach as well. Both seem highly unlikely.

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ShooterMcGee's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:13 pm

Our defense has the players necessary to win a championship. I also believe our offense can score enough to mitigate some of the weaknesses of our defense. However, can they also overcome our poor special team unit? I guess we will see if a #1 offense can carry a team with an average defense and historically poor special teams group. My fear is they cost us a trip to the Superbowl as they did in 2014? (Let us not forget a fake fg for a td and a fumbled onside kick)

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SpikeHyzer's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:58 pm

Kickoffs have practically disappeared and with teams moving the ball so well and also going for it more often on 4th down means punts are far less frequent than they used to be.
Special teams don't really affect the overall outcome in most games--Pack still won easily when they made their huge mistakes--and those mistakes, giving up the big play or having such a bad punting day that field position is an issue, hardly ever happen as well.

The Pack have been crap on ST. It simply doesn't matter.

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flackcatcher's picture

December 10, 2020 at 11:15 pm

You are right about ST. Folks on this blog just don't want to admit how much the game has changed. Frankly, the rules changes since 2010 have been bad for the game. As long as the ST is neutral in the position game it's a win for the Packers. League has made ST an afterthought. I totally hate it.

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canadapacker's picture

December 10, 2020 at 06:18 pm

I agree with being nervous about Carolina - if Davis and McCaff are the running backs - up and down the field. They blew it against the Vikes with the stupid 3 man rush at the end of the game and bad offensive play calling on their last possession. As I said before our biggest game of the year is next week against the Lions. Stafford can fling it but even with Golladay out -he got 400 yards against the Bears. Win this game and it is almost a guarantee NFC north title and we can work on the Defense. Our problem has been with the interior linebackers. I wonder why we didnt bring CM3 in to play there - he has got to be better than what is there. However that plus some Dlinemen need to be our offseason free agent targets. As far as the draft is concerned - best player available - and that would include - wait for it - a receiver. But I think that Linsley is gone and not so sure about Jones - Tonyon will be back - Stearnberger might be gone - and Ervin. But the Offense will need a back up lineman 6 round pick or undrafted free agents. Our drafting of first round defensive prospects has been hit and miss - remember Justin Harrell - Datone Jones Nick Perry Clinton Dix - NFL has changed to smaller mobile hard hitting inside linebackers. One final note - we need Dbacks who can tackle. Then Pettine can run the type of defenses that the will beat the top tier teams.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:08 pm

Teddy Bridgewater could not hit a guy wide open in the endzone on a four yard pass vs the queens. Not worried about Carolina. Detroit could set up for a shoot out. They have nothing to lose and Bevell knows the Pack's weaknesses. CMIII is 34 years old, hanging in the LA sun and raising a family. If he wanted to play, he would be on a team from day one. Gutedkunst did not draft those stiffs.

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SpikeHyzer's picture

December 10, 2020 at 07:02 pm

Everybody needs to calm down about 2 and 3 man rushes. They've become far more prevalent in the modern NFL because offenses are geared to get the ball out quick and a 4 or 5 man rush is NOT going to get to the QB either. The quick plays that connect on rushes with more than 3 players end up turning 3-5 yard throws into 25-35 yard gains. There IS a reason for rushes with only 2 and 3 players and it's to offer just enough disruption that the guys covering might have a chance for a play on the ball or the player before it becomes a big gain.

You've all got your heads in 60s, 70s, and 80s football and it's maybe time to join the rest of us in the new century.

The game has changed. You must have missed it.

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 10, 2020 at 10:11 pm

The last four SB winners ran four man fronts.

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Befuddled's picture

December 11, 2020 at 06:44 am

And the game against Jacksonville was sealed with a 4 man rush after someone called a timeout to change it from a 3 man.

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scullyitsme's picture

December 10, 2020 at 07:30 pm

He definitely should be fired, as I’ve said before, the best I can say about him after 3 years is he’s average at times. After 3 years of average let’s do better. All I have to do is think back to the Jacksonville defense with less talent almost kicking our butts, or Zimmer with absolutely no talent kicking our butts. I want one of those coaches. That don’t run their scheme, they taylor” A” scheme to the players they have.

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PackfanNY's picture

December 11, 2020 at 08:30 am

I think it’s premature....either way. The bottom line is it will all come down to how the Packers finish the year. On one hand, if the Packers get run over in the playoffs Pettine most certainly would be in trouble. I don’t know too many coaches or GMs who replace themselves. Someone will need to take the fall. Not saying I agree or like it but that’s how the NFL works. Teams with big expectations that fall short make changes. Fail enough and then we move on to dumping Head Coaches and GMs. Right now the HC and GM of the Packers are safe. Coaches? Not so much.Now on the other hand, Packers winning the SB or losing close probably means no change is coming.

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Since'61's picture

December 11, 2020 at 10:14 am

The biggest issue with the Packers defense is poor tackling. I would like to see where the Packers defense ranks in yards allowed after initial contact.
The next issue is that our ILBs and some DLs are not very good at getting off of their blockers. This enables RBs to get to the second level and beyond very easily.
Tackling and getting off blockers are fundamental defensive tactics. It doesn’t matter what the scheme is or how soft the defense is, if you can’t tackle or get off blocks you will see RBs and WRs running all over the field for good yardage.

From a coaching/scheme perspective I don’t see the Packers adjusting their defense based on the current opponent. If you know an opponent has a strong running game play with a 4 or even a 5 man front. Make them throw to beat you. If your opponent has a good passing game create pressure on the QB with 4 man rushes and blitzes. We have all these specialists and packages coming and going on nearly every down but they don’t seem to make an impact because of poor tackling.

As for the prevent defense, bag it until the last 3-4 minutes of the game assuming that we have a 2+ score lead. Thanks, Since ‘61

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jannes bjornson's picture

December 11, 2020 at 10:27 am

That would indicate the players are not that good to begin with and when someone shows ability, Pettine does not give them reps.

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Since'61's picture

December 12, 2020 at 12:03 pm

I would agree that some of our players are not that good and also that Pettine does not give enough reps to some players. Winn would be a good example of a player who should have had more reps prior to his injury. Thanks, Since ‘61

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ricky's picture

December 11, 2020 at 01:39 pm

So, the Packers have gone from a "Commitment to Excellence" to "Mediocre is Good Enough". Why can't the team have not only a terrific offense, but a top ten defense? Is that too much to ask?

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TarynsEyes's picture

December 11, 2020 at 03:43 pm

Mediocrity says you're not a winner or loser. It's a safe space from which both can argue or cry a defense of mediocrity. Also know as statistic and ranking adorers.

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