Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - It's Fundamental

The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.

The madness continues. Young players will make mistakes, but the youth excuse will only get you so far. The job of the coaching staff in such situations is to drill core fundamentals into them and develop said players. You should be seeing some small improvements, but over six games, the Packers' young players seem to have regressed, not improved. I hate to sound like Mike McCarthy here, but he wasn't wrong droning on about the importance of fundamentals.

How are the young wide receivers still making so many mental mistakes? LaFleur keeps telling us how smart these guys are, so then why is it still happening, Matt? How are they being taught? Fundamentals.

How is this team still so bad at running screen passes? This is personal pet peeve of mine as someone who earned the nickname "Mr. Screen" in HS football (very original, right?) I wasn't that good of an offensive tackle, but for some reason, I was really good at getting out into space on screens and blocking downfield. SO much of it is timing. The Packers' offensive linemen seem to have no clue when to release, how to maintain the proper distance in front of the receiver and then picking the right targets downfield and hitting them. Fundamentals.

And frankly, it's not limited to the young players. For example, how is this team STILL so bad at tackling? I watch other defenses and wonder why, with a few exceptions, the Packers whiff on so many tackles? The first player to the ball frequently misses (I'd love to see a stat on that). They can make average running backs look like Barry Sanders. What techniques are they being taught? Fundamentals.

As you saw in my "three Plays..." post yesterday, Josiah Deguara is failing at the one thing he is on this roster to do - block. Why is he leaving his feet so much to try to throw cut blocks (and whiffing)? I don't see tight ends on other teams blocking like that - is that the technique he is being taught? Fundamentals.

The coaching staff - I see a lack of common sense from the offensive and defensive play callers. The last two games have ended with the Packers having a chance to come back to win the game, with both drives ended by LaFleur calling for long bombs because they got "the look" they wanted. This when the long bomb has been a abject failure for most of this season. Patience and common sense is required in those situations. There is no good reason to take a risk when there is plenty of time still on the clock to at least get into field goal range. Fundamentals.

The Broncos did something very smart - they attacked the Packers' replacements who were subbing for injured Pro Bowl players. Valentine and McDuffie were thrown at and run at respectively, when the Broncos needed a play to keep drives alive. It's what smart coaches do. Fundamentals.

And speaking of smart (or lack of smarts), we have Joe Barry. I've pointed out recently the nonsensical defensive packages employed in short yardage. I would even call it the opposite of what should be done given the situation. Here's a perfect example. On a second and three from the six yard line, the Packers do the right thing (shocked) and basically have six men on the LOS with the Broncos going heavy (six OL and a TE). On the next play, 3rd and one from the 4 yd line, Denver subs and brings in another tight end. They now have six OL and two TE's in-line.Since Denver subbed, the Packers can also sub. What do they do? They take two DL out (Wooden and Slaton) and replace them with a safety and linebacker. Result? Easy running TD for the Broncos, although the Packers catch a break as it was called back by a penalty. Take a watch as Andy explains this madness. Fundamentals.

 

I have come to terms that the Packers are building towards the 2025 season. So losing close games should not be unexpected and I can accept that. But I think it's becoming clear that this coaching staff is not developing players OR making smart in-game decisions. That's a fundamental problem.

 

__________________________

"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther.  Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP

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22 points
 

Comments (160)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
NickPerry's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:44 am

"But I think it's becoming clear that this coaching staff is not developing players OR making smart in-game decisions. That's a fundamental problem."

Does anything else even need to be said?

Matt LaFleur isn't a head coach. Hell, I don't think he's much of an OC either. He can adjust or even call a TO when he should, like on the defensive play above. Sure, Barry called it (UGH!!) but MLF let it continue even when he HAD to know it wouldn't stop Bambi.

Now we're in a place where the Packers have a TON of young talent. These players NEED to be coached up and put in a position to succeed. That isn't happening under LaFleur and what's worse is all this young talent they currently have won't ever amount to what they COULD HAVE been because they aren't getting the proper coaching.

What a mess... This is exactly the time I wish the Packers had an owner. Murphy has done many wonderful things for the Packers organization but I'll remember him for the "Silos" and fucking up my beloved Packers!

17 points
20
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dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:28 am

"Now we're in a place where the Packers have a TON of young talent. These players NEED to be coached up and put in a position to succeed."

I would amend this to say that they have a ton of young PLAYERS, and they need to figure out who has the talent and ability to stick at the NFL level and who will churn.

There's going to be a lot of churn...but that's true of every team that goes young.

9 points
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Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:52 am

...I would amend this to say that they have a ton of young PLAYERS, and they need to figure out who has the talent and ability...

This is the critical distinction that our FO is not doing a good job at. This roster has a lot of chaff that gets recycled to the practice squad. The O-line and D-line have a reserve of very average talent. We have no real depth at RB. Not good for a draft and develop team.

Whoever is doing the pro scouting is a better candidate for GM. They, at least, can spot a good football player.

5 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:01 am

When what the team is doing is so muddled tactically and poorly executed (as Al points out, a lack of fundamentals) then evaluating talent is impossible. The chaos is such that we are in that position now. That was the one way to waste this season, LaFleur has personally and vicariously managed it.

8 points
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Malland56's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:04 pm

That young talent showed LAST year. Are O line is almost the same as last year except for Walker. 3 of them were starters. They did a pretty good job when we started to see Rodgers trust his rookie WR's. So why are we having problems now with our O line and WR's? It's the coaching and play calling.
All these short passes are just telling the opponents thats what were going to throw at you. Our screen play just sucks this year. Our QB can't connect on a long ball if his life depended on it. I believed in Love but now I don't. 3 years under Rodgers and he has learned some but not much. Like I said the other day, if the WR's this year are screwing up lets see more of Wicks and Heath. Wicks was the #1 WR in the NFL going into this game for getting open in one on one coverage.

And what about that pass to Dilion up the middle for a big gain? I have been going nuts as to why ML does not USE this more. A lot more. Imagine if that would have been Jones or Wilson catching that pass! TD! It's always been there but never used like it should be. It would also cause the defense to adjust to it and help our WR's get open more.

1 points
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RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:19 am

"Matt LaFleur isn't a head coach. Hell, I don't think he's much of an OC either."

Nick, do me a favor. Go watch Mike Wahle and Kurt Benkert. I'm sure there are more, but those are a couple of guys I watched that help enlighten me. You can find both guys on twitter. Watch them talking about the offense. These are 2 experienced guys that know more then any of us. Look at what they say about the Packers offense.

4 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:04 am

It’s pretty damning bafflement at the both the approach and fundamentals level.

4 points
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RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:13 am

The playcalling and play designs are all good. Its the execution with fundamentals that are the problem. To me the fundamentals are more on the position coaches. That is what they are there for.
This is a very basic view of how things should work imo. I could be way off in how it actually works, but this is how I view it. The HC needs to oversee everything. The offensive coordinator needs to come up with a plan and coordinate it and coordinate it with the position coaches. The position coaches need to work with their techniques and fundamentals and get the positions ready for the games.

5 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:20 am

I’m sorry, but no, that’s not at all what Wahle is saying. He’s really come pretty close to damning the coaching from bottom to top and a regular theme is the appearance of calls and protections that any pro should know only work on a grease board in his view and others that seem to require us to not understand what our players can do or do well.

2 points
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LLCHESTY's picture

October 25, 2023 at 05:22 pm

Where's LH to tell us they're still 17th in scoring? Pretty, pretty good. Maybe he gave up after predicting they'd be 4-2 after beating the Raiders and a Broncos.

-1 points
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SicSemperTyrannis's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:29 pm

Play calling that doesn't match personnel is not good.

1 points
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CheeseEdWest2's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:56 pm

The HC has to see the big picture, his most important jobs are to set the tone and hire most excellent assistant coaches. He might be good at OC scheming, and did OK when he had Rodgers. Still, I think Rodgers had to do the adjusting that we see MLF is not doing, creating friction, but now it seems we are seeing why 12 had to do that. The Pack won a lot of games the last 3 years, but few decisively. I think 12 hid a lot of less than spectacular coaching and personnel, and he wasn't being well coached either.

There's no way around it that MLF is failing at his selection and advancement of coaches, and I don't see him setting the proper tone either. When you watch enough ball, you get a feel for how a good coach leads, Yes, he cherishes his players, but football is not a lovefest. Can it be a Love Fest? Hard to tell with all the other dysfunction. AND, we haven't been playing very good teams so far. Look out. I am reduced to watching the highlights of the games, and even that feels like a waste of time.

4 points
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Fubared's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:40 pm

One issue, is it young "talent" or just young players? We dont know if they are talented based on Gutts drafting of Love and others.

-2 points
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2
Cheezehead72's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:55 am

Al you wrote "The coaching staff - I see a lack of common sense from the offensive and defensive play callers." I believe what has happened is the coaching staff heard that this was not a common year for the Packers so they throw out everything common.

Another good article.

5 points
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T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:10 am

The worst of the matter is that the players and everyone else see this. In game adjustment and bad play calls/packages have been happening since MLF's first season in the playoffs. This was my biggest complaint about McCarthy. He, at least, had the team practiced and prepared well for at least the first 15 plays.

The coaches are evidently ignoring all of this for some reason and are going to lose more players that will want to be traded or won't re-sign.

Do they end up being even younger next season?

They even seem to have taken a step back on special teams. Kicking is ok but returns and coverage is looking at least unimproved, and if you aren't getting better, the other teams are.

5 points
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1
jannes bjornson's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:14 am

It seems you are suggesting replacing Coaches, not Players, would be the rational choice.

1 points
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2
T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:29 am

Replace nice & cuddly mindset with mean and nasty, to start with.

No more tickling kneecaps!

1 points
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Savage57's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:12 am

The Packers coaching staff has become an exercise in football's version of the Peter Principle - promoting to someone's highest level of incompetency.

The head coach is an overpromoted OC. The DC is an overpromoted LB coach. The OC is an overpromoted OL coach. The OL coach? Don't even get me started on how Luke Butkus, an obvious Bears plant and sleeper agent, has turned what used to be a position group of strength into a shit show.

A young team needs nothing but sound coaching to develop. The Green Bay staff is proving week after week after week they are insufficient to the cause.

20 points
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Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:54 am

...A young team need nothing but sound coaching to develop. The Green Bay staff is proving week after week after week they are insufficient to the cause...

Arrow - meet bullseye.

9 points
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stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:18 am

Mlf isn’t Lombardi.
But he was rated as one of the better
NFL Fundamentals coach," with Rodgers".
And thats the point. Rodgers “Bitched".
Yep- Public enemy #1. You got your Love.
And with it a terrible undermining staff.
That either left or have been promoted.
So good bye offense.
Hello to a defense with injuries.

This team is out of control.
Too much is going into Loves development.
So just forget the fundamental part.
The back-ups coming in, aren’t getting it.
The coaches don’t teach it.
And the unit as a whole can’t do it.
The lack of discipline is obvious.
From Love to the rest of the team.
MLF was forced into this. The only way out.
Fire everyone and start with the GM.

-5 points
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Savage57's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:30 am

It's not so much the bizarre format that's so off-putting and confounding, or the tortured murder of language, or the make-it-up-as-you-go punctuation and capitalization, as it is the boring, pedantic repetition of the same message day after day after frickin' day.

While I can't do anything to help you with your obsessions, here's a formatting and editing tip that'll make your messaging, if not more entertaining, at least readable.

"Gute isn't fit to serve as the Packers GM and Matt LaFleur isn't a NFL head coach.
Wholesale termination is the only option.
I'd crawl over a mile of broken glass on my knees to take one for Aaron Rodgers."

Try it out. For everyone's sake.

10 points
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8
stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:13 am

Just keeping with the Comments.
If you can write it. I can preach it.
Maybe you would like my bilingual
comments better.
But I don’t have a Dictionary
For that.
Sorry for your confusion.
But the Love vs. #12 is obvious.

-1 points
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crayzpackfan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:44 am

There once was a guy called “Stock”
“Holder” of mighty Rodgers old cock
When push comes to shove
He simply blames Jordan Love
Which comes to all of here as a shock

-1 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:23 am

Gute is his target, Love just his current easy proxy to berate Gute for. He was the same with Rodgers and TT and his disloyalty to Favre for more than 2 years.

6 points
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2
crayzpackfan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:56 am

Gute was harder to find rhymes for. ;)

3 points
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SicSemperTyrannis's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:38 pm

Needs a Jethro Tull reference ;)

1 points
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stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:05 am

Your impossible- Always the wrong reply.
So I'll quote Confucius - I hear and I forget. ...
Hopefully others will too.

-4 points
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5
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:02 pm

A very apt motto for you. Of course you forgot the second part: “I see and I remember.”

Confucius’ point being, don’t listen to rumor but trust your eyes. How apt again!

Unfortunately your endless recitation of the evils done by TT to Favre for the lesser Rodgers were seen all too often and long to forget.

3 points
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2
LLCHESTY's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:44 pm

Wait a minute, he's been on here since 2008 and this is STILL what he tries to pass off as English? Oh boy.

0 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:39 pm

He was on APC till they banned him for something. He used to write normally but the content is consistent.

0 points
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snowdog's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:34 pm

This is a fan based comment section, not an english class .

0 points
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2
stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 05:50 pm

Thank You!

0 points
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1
Packerpasty's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:42 pm

yup!! Every has a right to an opinion...

-2 points
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jannes bjornson's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:38 am

We've covered the failure in the personnel dept. ad nauseam. The priority list in roster development looks like a "pin the tail on the donkey" canard. The Cult has been crying for a running game to supplement the greenhorn QB, but where is it? The guy is worrying about his blindside every time he steps back in the pocket.
The Silage committee gave the team Cap Hell, a weak O line and nobody behind A.Jones who can run wide zone and he was probably hurting when he started in the Season Opener.

1 points
4
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T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:32 am

Love probably figures that they aren't going to honor the run anyway, so he may as well cheat on the fake handoff and get the ball out on time or quicker.

0 points
0
0
TKWorldWide's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:24 am

I was talking about “growing pains” with a buddy recently and his summation was, “yeah, but, you’d like to see some progress. It looks like they are regressing, not progressing.”

Dang it all, I had to agree.

Question: what are GB’s strengths on offense and defense?
On offense: pass pro, and anything that involves 33. But he’s missed ALMOST the whole season.

Defensively: Lately, they’ve held opponents to acceptable point totals, and I think I heard something about pretty good numbers on third downs.

7 points
7
0
dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:32 am

I keep coming back to their usage on 33 on Sunday. He seemed to be healthy enough to play, but they limited his snaps and doubled down on Dillon. Dillon had a decent game, but he doesn't threaten a defense like Jones does.

Conclusions...
1. Jones really wasn't all that healthy.
2. They thought they could save Jones for MN and win with Dillon
3. They wanted to show Jones was healthy but didn't want to risk injury so they could shop him? (although the cap implications seem prohibitive there)
4. They really have no clue in how to use personnel.

14 points
14
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Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:41 am

...4. They really have no clue in how to use personnel...

I am surprised that he didn't show up as a down lineman on defense.

2 points
3
1
TKWorldWide's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:17 am

Failing to match offensive personnel with the corresponding defense confounds me.

Why not just play prevent all game long, and then after the loss, say, “We were proud of the way we limited explosive plays”?

7 points
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2
TKWorldWide's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:14 am

I heard that after the game, Jones admitted he wasn’t fully healthy. I do not understand how a guy with a bad hammy can run full speed at all, even on a single play. Limiting snaps/carries doesn’t make any sense to me.

7 points
7
0
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:00 am

It’s weird. A Hammy that’s bad is a risk every play. Yes, fatigue exacerbated that, but it may not need to. It’s an injury one shouldn’t play on if it’s not right unless it’s that game or the end of the season. There’s no half way with a hammy, it’s elther good or not. Why play him and risk far worse? Desperation or stupidity?

4 points
4
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T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:28 am

Could be all these vets are using dings as injuries because they don't want to be playing right now and getting blamed for things out of their control. Also don't want to hurt their trade value/opportunities with contending teams.

0 points
1
1
dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:53 pm

Many of these guys know they're likely to hit the open market this off season. They're playing for contracts...and they need to be on the field.

3 points
3
0
T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:27 pm

Unless they think it will make them look bad playing on a poorly coached/schemed team.

1 points
1
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:13 am

They started with a number of players coming off injury. Wyatt, Savage, Stokes, Jenkins and Jones come to mind. Jones did little, Wyatt, Stokes and Savage all quickly went down with the same or likely related injuries. Jenkins looked like a shadow of himself. That tells me there was something wrong with the appraisal process.

I think back to my bafflement late last year when they trotted out Nijman only for it to be visibly obvious he was effectively playing T one armed. I suppose one could go back to playing an obviously hobbled King in a championship game too. Fear of change or just poor judgement?

4 points
4
0
coolhand's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:36 am

"Defensively: Lately, they’ve held opponents to acceptable point totals, and I think I heard something about pretty good numbers on third downs."

Well, I would say we haven't played any real good offensive teams yet except for Detroit, and how did that turn out?

5 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:22 am

PFF had the Packers missing 13 tackles last week, the same as against Detroit. These were split about 3:2 between run and pass plays but they had the Broncos gaining 99 yards after contact on the ground.

Looking over the season, it certainly seems like this D struggles as soon as a team can pass and run. That’s been our Achilles heel for ever. We look good against one dimensional teams and fall apart when there is a dual threat.

Missed tackles by week per PFF.

Week 1: 10
Week 2: 8
Week 3: 4
Week 4: 13 (Detroit)
Week 5: 4
Week 7: 13

2 points
2
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T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:37 am

Atlanta insisted on being one dimensional and ran the ball down our throats.

The Saints couldn't pass the ball, even though they tried.

1 points
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RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:39 am

"Question: what are GB’s strengths on offense and defense?
On offense: pass pro, and anything that involves 33. But he’s missed ALMOST the whole season."

GB's strength on offense is Jones. The problem is he has missed more games then played. He is the biggest difference maker we have on offense. He changes everything on offense. Behind him is Watson and his ability to stretch teams. BUT like Jones he also has missed a lot of time. Missing both guys has really hurt the offense.

Defensive strengths are the individuals. We have Gary who is a game wrecker. We have Alexander and Douglas who are great. Walker is really good as well. Others have really good strengths, but our DC doesn't use their strengths.

6 points
6
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:25 am

When your strength is individuals not groups it suggests there’s a problem. Good individuals make groups better. Ours aren’t really. If Jones is our offensive key, it’s because we all hope he can make things happen despite the OL. It’s more hope than proven reality at this point as well.

3 points
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1
RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:13 am

Right now we don't know what our strength is offensively because everyone is so new. We just know a few things that are really good.

2 points
2
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:11 am

LaFleur and Stenovich aren’t new. There’s a difference between issues with youth and offensive identity. We can have an identity and fail to execute it. Right now I don’t see a coherent plan from the coaches at all.

2 points
2
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Since'61's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:29 am

Madness! Madness!! Madness!!! It's all that I can say about the Packers current situation.

I expected mistakes, inconsistencies and losses from a young team and a first year QB for this season and even into next season. But like everyone else I also expected this team to show that they were learning how to play and to improve over the course of the season. 2024 would be the season when the young players begin to learn how to win. There is a difference between learning how to play at the NFL level (adjusting to the speed of play in the NFL) and learning how to win in the NFL ( minimizing mistakes and improving techniques to win one on one battles). Neither of these are currently happening on the 2023 Packers.

The clip of the defensive play sequence provided in the article is yet another excellent example of coaching making it more difficult for their own team to succeed. It's third and one and Barry is taking two DLs off the field!!! WTF??? At the least you're giving up the first down and giving the Broncos a fresh set of downs by doing that. Why? At the worst you give up the TD which the Packers were saved from only because of a holding penalty on the Broncos.

The Packers have an HC in his 5th season who still has no sense of situational football and as a result his staff and his players fail time after time in situational football going back at least as far as the loss to Tampa in the NFCCG. MLF and his staff should be long past this even with a young team which, BTW, has plenty of experience on the defensive side of the ball.

As Andy said during the clip "that is the stuff that is so insanely hard to make sense of". My explanation is Madness because I'm not sure what else is left.

Al, great job as always. Thanks, Since '61

11 points
12
1
dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:35 am

Even though I felt pretty confident that LaF was not on the hot seat coming into the season, this kind of season is what usually kick-starts a major turnover in staff.

6 points
7
1
Since'61's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:45 am

Dobber, normally I would agree with you 100%. But I don't think Murphy is going to make any moves before he goes off into retirement after the 2024 season. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see him shaking things up at this point.

I do take some hope that he did say that "We'll know by mid season what we have in Jordan Love." But that may only mean the Packers would look to draft another QB in 2024. It doesn't necessarily mean changes to the coaching staff. And the question becomes is it Love or is it the coaches if Love does not improve as a QB over the course of the season. Just watching the games and clips provided in Al's articles I don't see where the coaches are helping anyone to improve.

We just need to take it week by week and remember that things can change very quickly from week to week in the NFL. Stay well. Thanks, Since '61

3 points
3
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dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:53 am

I think that turnover can take many forms. Unless there's a significant turnaround in the second half of the season with signs of meaningful growth, I think there will be pressure on LaF after the season to shake up his staff--that's usually the first step for an established coach on the Hot Seat. LaF could always refuse, which might push him out the door.

If things continue to spiral, it wouldn't surprise me if Murphy will want to leave his stamp on the organization with his own choices for coaches and management rather than having his legacy being the second-guessing of the Rodgers saga and handing a listless franchise with ineffectual leadership to the next CEO.

6 points
6
0
jannes bjornson's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:57 am

What if he hands the CEO position to Low-Ball?

0 points
2
2
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:41 am

It’s more likely to be Ed Policy that’s his choice per rumor. Ball was Murphy’s choice for GM but MM and Rodgers killed that.

Policy is a Murphy protege and is not a football guy, he’s a lawyer who worked in sports related real property development before moving into administration with the arena league before Murphy hired him as General Counsel initially. He’s really the guy behind the Title Town development.

2 points
2
0
LLCHESTY's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:47 pm

The Packers will suddenly be early 1990's Tampa Bay Buccaneers level stingy. They'd trade good players before having to pay them. Ball gets promoted to President get ready to embrace the suck.

0 points
0
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:28 am

Murphy cares about his reputation. If he thinks he runs the risk of leaving mid melt down he will act. It’s not merely ego, he has a lucrative motivational speaker business. He will not want to be leaving town as a guy remembered for leaving the Packers in disarray. That’s increasingly likely if nothing is done or too little. A repeat of this next year would be disastrous for him personally. If you think it’s ugly now …

1 points
1
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Dragon5's picture

October 25, 2023 at 05:25 pm

Nice nugget Coldworld and duly noted! Feels like we're in Defcon 4 ready to transition to Defcon 3 with a couple more Ls.

AL: keep laying it on thick...'tis the season for voice of reason

2 points
2
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T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:13 am

Wasn't it Gute who said, "we'll know by mid-season"?

-1 points
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Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:28 am

I think that was Murphy: “it will probably take at least half a season for the team to know what it has in new starting quarterback Jordan Love.”

5 points
5
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dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:11 pm

Interesting read on JSOnline today by Tom Silverstein, saying the Packers erred by going too far with youth and that they can't really evaluate Love unless they get him some steadying veteran help. Silverstein points mostly to WR, and throws Derrick Henry in there for good measure (but implies help on the OL or at TE wouldn't hurt).

Players he points to (with remaining cap hits for 2023)...
Tennessee WR DeAndre Hopkins ($947,222)
Las Vegas WR Hunter Renfrow ($3.6 million)
New York Giants WR Sterling Shepard ($647,222)
Denver WR Jerry Jeudy ($1.5 million)
Denver WR Cortland Sutton ($8 million)
Tennessee RB Derrick Henry ($5.83 million)
Tampa Bay WR Mike Evans ($7.22 million)
Carolina WR Terrance Marshall Jr. ($614,367)
Arizona WR Marquise Brown ($7.45 million)

1 points
1
0
RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:44 am

The major moves needs to be changing the coaching staff around. LaFleur to stay, Barry to go. Need some fresh blood on defense. And need some new offensive coaches. A few positions I am questioning are WR and OL. I get all the WR's are young, but you need the WR coaches to prepare them. Are they really prepared? Watson has made a few mistakes that he shouldn't be making. OL is also concerning considering every position from a year ago has regressed except for RT. Someone posted rankings from last year to this year at each position. Every position has went down except for Tom at RT. That spot went up like 20 points.

0 points
3
3
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:35 am

If you are going to gut the coaching staff, keeping the guy that assembled them and retained them based on what we needed being continuity is absolutely and completely as delusional as it is pointless. LaFleur not only hires them he sets the tone for this team and manages his coaches within that.

4 points
4
0
RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:19 am

Its not about blowing it up completely. But it is about making some adjustments. Right now on offense I have no idea how good the position coaches are or aren't. But you have to look at the struggles last year and this year with the OL and wonder how good is Butkus? When Steno was the OL coach they could move guys around and it would still work well. Now it doesn't seem like its working. So I question Butkus. That is one question.

Defensively they need to blow it up. Everyone new!

1 points
2
1
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:32 am

I disagree. I think we are past the tinkering stage. That was last year. Moreover, if your Head Coach is part of the problem and he clearly is, then tinkering is a largely futile response that does no more than bide time and stoke the eventual explosion.

5 points
5
0
RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:59 am

The organization decided to make a massive change. They decided to go with the youth. They traded their HOF QB, to go with a first time starting QB and to build the offense around him with all young guys. They made this move not only for this year but for the next couple of years. But that being said offensively the philosophy is fine, but the players are not playing to their abilities. Plain and simple. But then you have to ask if the OL coach is doing what he needs to. If the WR coach is doing everything he can. Which is why I can see some tinkering done with the position coaches.
On defense the whole thing needs to be changed. I hope that happens this offseason.

I'm currently listening to WIlde and Tausch. They are talking to Bryan Bulaga, Iowa right now. Basically he said it is not on LaFleur. Its basically that he doesn't have the players he needs to run his offense right now. With the young players and whatnot. Basically they have to run a more vanilla offense because the young players aren't able to run more then that.

2 points
4
2
TKWorldWide's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:51 pm

I think the “youth movement” was as much about the cap situation as it was about anything else.

2 points
2
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:37 pm

Players are great. It's now week 8 and the HC has yet to match his approach to his players. OL personnel is on HC, which deserves an F.

Who are the "best 5?"

2 points
2
0
BruceC1960's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:03 am

Do you think we could even attract any coaching talent for 2024? Knowing it’s Murphy’s last year, some might fear the new president will want his own guys?

2 points
2
0
T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:43 am

Or worse, the prospect would be afraid they'll hire in-house (which they always do).

0 points
0
0
snowdog's picture

October 25, 2023 at 03:27 pm

Burning question . how can you quire any quality upgrade coaches,
' without any money ?

0 points
1
1
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:44 pm

Cap does not cover coaches. The Packers are loaded, it’s the player salary cap that has been run dry.

0 points
0
0
mnbadger's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:30 pm

Dobber I hope you're correct regarding the major overhaul.
I was booed starting a few years ago when it became clear to this cheesehead that mlf was not ready for a hc position in the nfl.
this season is a total waste. The staff MUST be replaced by the start of next year.
That makes 2024 a waste as well.
This all leads me to believe we should be sellers at trade deadline because any veteran talent will be gone before this team is relevant as long as this staff is still employed.
GPG!

3 points
3
0
Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:39 am

Between the article and the comments, I think a clear and accurate picture is being drawn. One of the primary roles of the head coach is to recruit the best coaches. I can't see where LaFleur has attracted many top notch coaches. And to restate Savage57's comment, when he got a decent guy he promoted him to a level of incompetence. Our O-line, TE and WRs are a mess. With the head coach playing "fancy play caller" who is minding the store?

I was hoping that this year would be a rebuild but competitive year. I am worried now that we will demoralize the players that we have and drop to a whole new level of "tear it down"

I am also concerned that our GM Gutekunst isn't up to the task. His preoccupation with RAS scores has the roster stuffed with flag football players. At this rate we will never be able to run the ball or stop the run. Can't build a house without a foundation - Brian.

14 points
14
0
Guam's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:01 am

Re: Your comment on Gutekunst. I think you might have a valid point about RAS versus football players, but I am having a hard time evaluating Gutekunst given the awful job this coaching staff is doing. When the coaching staff isn't teaching fundamentals and is making a mess of the play calling on both side of the ball, how do you evaluate the players? Is it the players fault the Packers are failing or is it the coaches fault for putting the players in no-win situations?

I am leaning toward the idea we need a new coaching staff before we can properly evaluate the players and/or Gutekunst.

4 points
7
3
jannes bjornson's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:03 am

Players, not Plays.

2 points
5
3
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:09 pm

Bad plays can undermine good players. At this point it’s impossible to deny that both exist and thus untangle which is the chicken and which is the egg. In such circumstances, the wise move is to focus on the one that can be changed first.

3 points
3
0
Packerfansupreme's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:40 am

Why is Deguara still on this team
The guy cannot do anything.
You cant tell me that Gutey cant go out and find a blocker for cheap who can do better.

9 points
11
2
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:45 am

Yes, let's go over to the blocker store and get one. Amazon, has free shipping.

2 points
3
1
jannes bjornson's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:24 am

Alec Ingold was available as an UDFA coming out of Madison and after his Raider's gig. Hunter Luepke was available post-draft, but signed as an UDFA with McCarthy. CJ Ham was a FA. They could have poached from the Viking's roster and weakened the opposition...

0 points
1
1
KenEllis's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:57 am

Degaura is still on the team because he is Gutey's best 3rd round pick to date. No, seriously he is.

10 points
11
1
dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:58 am

In the end, it seems that Deguara has never been consistently able to fill the "Kyle Juszcsadlkadchyk" role that everyone rationalized him for when he was drafted.

6 points
8
2
jannes bjornson's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:11 am

Not a fair comparison to Juszczyk. He doesn't play scared, like Deguara.

3 points
4
1
barutanseijin's picture

October 25, 2023 at 01:52 pm

It’s not that hard to look up the spelling: Juszczyk. You look like an ass when you try to cover up your laziness and ignorance by making fin of the guy’s name.

-2 points
0
2
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:42 am

Actually, Deguara has done well at times this year and rated well. That’s been when he’s not being asked to play true TE. He is what he is, but he’s never been good enough to be more than an emergency TE. He’s just miscast and has been most of his time here. I’d have cut him if we didn’t plan to use him differently and said so. We have occasionally, but he’s too often trotted out there against type. We would be better off using Sims or Kraft at this point in many of those circumstances.

5 points
7
2
stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:21 am

Get off the PFF Ratings.
Deguara is only on the team
because he was a 3rd rd pick.
He couldn't hold Kuhns jock strap.

1 points
4
3
KenEllis's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:43 pm

Um Degaura currently has a 53.9 PFF rating.

Not even PFF thinks he is any good.

1 points
2
1
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:14 pm

Mostly from using him to block in line. PFF is right in that he’s been abysmal at that. He had a blocking grade below 6 (six) last week! Just miscast. Use Sims, use an OL, but stop asking Deguara to block In line. How long does it take to learn that? It’s Amari/Hanson type behavior from LaFleur. Come to think of it, Myers is below Deguara, but they won’t touch him either.

1 points
2
1
Boneman's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:43 am

Former Packer Mike Wahle has been saying this for some time now. The Packers are often losing individual matchups on the O and D lines purely on fundamentals and technique. Unfortunately this includes players like Jenkins and Clark, who have regressed for some reason. My theory is that almost zero time is spent on these types of things during practices with a big focus on schemes. Many coaches are not teachers and haven't gotten their bona fides from that skill set. The prevailing attitude seems to be that it is up to individual players to work on their fundamentals themselves. With the Packers there isn't enough veteran leadership to make that possible. Its not just a Packer problem as the level of play you see from most teams is shockingly bad for professionals.

10 points
10
0
Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:02 am

I love the Mike Wahle tape breakdown - so informative and so insightful. Without technique, even the better talent is reduced to average. I don't know what is being done at practice but the quality of play doesn't point to effective teaching.

6 points
6
0
Guam's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:45 am

Jersey Al, I believe you have said it all and only one more thing needs to be said.

Will Murphy have the will to make a change this late in his tenure as President? Or will he just let the whole mess slide until he retires and drops this coaching crap show onto his successor?

5 points
6
1
dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:01 am

I think his track record indicates that he's not 'hands-off' enough to let things roll. He's going to insert himself into this dynamic--probably in some pretty significant way--before he's done.

I just hope the next CEO has the good sense to lift himself out of the process.

9 points
9
0
Guam's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:26 am

I suspect you're right Dobber, but that may not be a good thing. Afterall, Murphy hired LeFleur after little due diligence. He may well repeat that failed process in the next coaching search.

Even if Murphy makes a move, the next CEO made need to review a new mess.

2 points
2
0
mnbadger's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:36 pm

Murphy should acknowledge his mistake in the hiring of mlf and fire him now.
Retain the rest of the staff, elevate Bisacia to hold it together through season's end.
Next, acknowledge his mistake again, the day after firing mlf and retire immediately.
Let the board pick a successor and let the successor pick a new HC.
delay only kicks bad GBPkr football further down the road.
GPG!

1 points
2
1
T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 01:11 pm

If he retired now, he'd have to be thinking about the team first.

Hmmm, novel approach.

3 points
3
0
dobber's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:19 pm

"Let the board pick a successor and let the successor pick a new HC."

How about this: let the board pick a successor and let the successor distance himself from the on-field power structure by installing a GM empowered broadly to run the football side of the organization, starting with the hiring of the next head coach.

6 points
6
0
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:54 am

When a decision requires two people to agree under the watch of a superior, that tends to result in compromise to avoid interference or the superior necessarily shaping the call. It’s no different in any organization. Compromises to avoid that tend not to result in coherent directions or optimal ones, rather the least worst outcome. As soon as the superior is involved then he or she inevitably shapes the outcomes. That can be directly, by suggesting solutions or less so be steering things, but it’s definitely shaping.

3 points
3
0
Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:07 am

I am not ready for this next level of despair. Hoping that the guy who is the architect of the mess leads us to the solution is not in my heart right now. I just don't know where the leadership and moxie will come from to right this ship.

5 points
5
0
Guam's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:28 am

I share your lack of confidence in Murphy.

3 points
3
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:52 pm

Murphy's law?

1 points
1
0
Tundraboy's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:18 pm

I suppose it depends on the degree of losing. This shouldn't be all about Murphy and his legacy. He shouldn't hold the Packers hostage and if this becomes a shitshow and the board sees that action needs to be taken before 2025, it must.

2 points
2
0
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:48 am

Sooner or later Al you'll have to come to terms with the fact that McCarthy is a better leader and football coach than MLF will ever be.

8 points
8
0
JerseyAl's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:01 am

For the record, I've always said MM was a great organizer, planner and leader. My only issues with him were in that 60-minute game period. The clock mismanagement, the uber-conservative approach with 4th quarter leads and lack of in-game adjustments.

11 points
11
0
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:25 am

fair enough, but "all gas, no brakes" was PR, not policy in this regime.

0 points
1
1
Tundraboy's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:46 pm

"The clock mismanagement, the uber-conservative approach with 4th quarter leads and lack of in-game adjustments."

And the legacy of that ,save for the 4th Qtr leads, lives on!

1 points
1
0
Packerpasty's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:31 am

I'd take MM back...an even swap with JJ...MLF for MM....

4 points
4
0
Cabeza del queso's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:02 am

I can't help but comment on this whole situation.
There is no doubt in my mind that the whole staff needs to be re-worked or replaced. Fundamentals not just in completing a play, but getting in position to complete play. I wonder if anyone has researched how many runs have made big yards on cut backs? It seemed to me Sunday we were in position at the initial point of attack, but no fill in the cutback lanes. That's coaching, fundamentals and discipline. I give the players a pass on this as I really feel that they don't have any clue what the big picture is. I'm pretty sure they practice - run as hard as you can at the ball carrier, fall down, give up 12 yards or more.
I'm pretty sure our technique in the secondary is - stay as far away from all receivers as you can, let them catch the ball, let them get up to speed, try to tackle them, fall down, give up an extra 12 yards. ( just a note, Fall Down is a fundamental we use both on offense and defense- and we have mastered it!)
Then there is our LT. I'm not even going to say his name. I really don't think he even wants to play. I realize he may be confused on some plays-- if you don't know who to block- pick someone and knock the sh__ out of them. He really should be buying a ticket for all he stands around and watches. On one play he fired off the ball whiffed on everyone- exercised his fundamental fall down, and just laid on the ground face down till the play was over. Sorry, but if I was coaching that kid I'd be kicking his ass up and down the sideline after every series. I'm sure someone counseled him and didn't hurt his feelings. Probably complimented him on his fall down .
I'm not a fan of our QB. Even when he completes a pass, its just a little behind, or low or high. Causing our receivers to-- you guessed it- fall down.
There are so many things that need to improve. For the most part, I think the players are trying, and would love to improve. The teaching just isn't there. Speaking of teaching; now I have to spend my day trying to teach HS sophomores about Medieval times. Hope I don't fall down.

8 points
8
0
Packerpasty's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:34 am

for a guy with 3 1/2 years of NFL coaching Love and his accuracy problems have not improved one bit...never hits anyone in stride and this dink and dunk offense is getting ridiculous...thats on MLF..

0 points
2
2
RCPackerFan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:05 am

"Young players will make mistakes, but the youth excuse will only get you so far."
Watching Kurt Benkert on twitter yesterday he was showing how many mistakes the young players were making. And its not consistent mistakes. Its one thing then another, then another. The problem is we all want someone to blame for it. That is where we are as a society, we have to have someone to blame for everything that happens. Sometimes things just happen. Sometimes with young players they need to experience mistakes to learn from them. As a parent, as a coach, you can try to prepare them for every scenario, but in the real world things that you didn't know you had to prepare them for happens. So you have to teach them after they make the mistakes.

"How is this team still so bad at running screen passes?"
This has also bothered me. Are they tipping teams off in someway? Because somehow every team knows when they are running it? Is it how the OL is releasing? Is it the way Love drops back? I mean what is it?

"The coaching staff - I see a lack of common sense from the offensive and defensive play callers."
Watching Kurt Benkert, Mike Wahle and others the offensive play calling has been good. The scheme and play designs have been good. Its been the execution that has been bad and inconsistent.
On the bomb play, sure they wanted to take a shot. But don't they still run progressions? To me that is on Love for not taking a check down or going through his progressions. He needs to see the safety is out there and its not the time to push it deep. And that he has a wide open Dillon who can make up a lot of yards.

"And speaking of smart (or lack of smarts), we have Joe Barry."
I have brought up this play all week. What I like about Andy's video is that he shows what they had on the field the previous play. And how Denver subbed and what GB subbed to. It just makes things worse for Barry. I would have let Barry go by now. But I don't see how things like this keep adding up and how he still has a job. Its bad.

7 points
9
2
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:04 am

Wahle is hardly endorsing the offense, he’s noted some individual play calls that he likes, but he doesn’t mince words about the approach to the running game, technical failings and regression or the way that they have gone about helping Love establish himself through offensive design generally and play calling as a whole. O’Sullivan is another who has identified similar issues.

Wahle Is particularly scathing about the prevalence of play call and protections that any pro should know (his words) only work on grease boards.

I don’t listen to Benkert, but if you are using Wahle as a defender of this offense, I think you miss the import of what he is saying drastically.

7 points
7
0
jont's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:56 pm

"Watching Kurt Benkert on twitter yesterday he was showing how many mistakes the young players were making. And its not consistent mistakes. Its one thing then another, then another."

This is exactly what Kurt Warner said about the Packers' O last season. Exactly the same problem.

And, so far, the same ineffective solutions.

Let's see what the 2nd half of the season brings. I always watch the games with hope.

0 points
0
0
Tundraboy's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:02 pm

"this team still so bad at running screen passes?"

Damn if I know but we definitely exacerbate it by running the same 4 or 5 basic plays consistently enough to essentially telegraph it. Maybe it follows a down and distance pattern, but rookies, veterans noone but Jones can execute it.. Hell they can't even catch it most times, or slip, trip.

0 points
0
0
HarryHodag's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:19 am

I guess all you can say is, 'what did you expect?'. This is the result of 'all in'. All in effectively ended that snowy night in Green Bay when Aaron Rodgers threw a pass to Adams in double coverage that was intercepted. Adams left, Rodgers left and the security blanket was gone. All in then, all out now.

I did a quick rundown of the remaining games and I now have them at 4-13.

Why has no one complained about Adam Stenavich? He was a pretty good o-line coach, but as an o-coordinator, he is lacking. The blame goes mostly to MLF from the fans, but Stenavich also should get the blame.
The problem is beginning to look like the 1970's when the team was effectively run by the Board of Directors who kept bungling everything. Now you have a leadership that is failing and there's no one to come forward and make an attempt to correct things as a single owner would. The board is going to ride or die with Murphy until his retirement in 2025. Rumor has it a Packers insider will get the job and keep everything going even if the team is tanking, very similar to the 1970's. The current management structure largely insulates everyone from accountability. Keep in mind MLF and Gute signed contract extensions.

The other problem is the talent level. Drafting high where the Packers have for years has allowed other teams to pass them. But Gute has bungled some drafting that would have made this team much better.
The Packers have few 5-star players and THAT is directly on the GM.

They can keep dreaming about building for 2024 and beyond but I now doubt it. Think the worst team in the league, yup, the number one draft pick worst, the Bears north. I've switched my stance from 'give them a chance' to this is 'The Last Dance'.

4 points
4
0
T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:18 am

If we get the #1 pick, we could get a Tony Mandarich type of blocker! I'm soooo excited!

3 points
3
0
HarryHodag's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:43 am

Actually Tony was the #2 pick.

Addendum: The Bears QB Tyson Bagent last Sunday led them to victory. Here's some of his bio from CBS Sports:

"Bagent was undrafted and is an alum of Shepherd University, became the first quarterback from a Division II school to start an NFL game since Jon Kitna all the way back in Week 15 of the 2010 season."

Three + years in with the Packers starter and the team is 2-4.

3 points
3
0
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 01:18 pm

the sample size is very small...

1 points
1
0
mrtundra's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:28 am

Wrap up when tackling. Don't run into the ball carrier, thinking that will knock him over. Wrap him up. Put in the proper defensive players to give the defense their best shot at stopping the opponent's offense.

2 points
2
0
PeteK's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:14 am

A missed tackle by Walker where he tackles high is a perfect example of the poor tackling on this team, but I watch other teams do the same thing. However, they have a few players that tackle well, we have one , Douglas.

4 points
4
0
ricky's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:31 am

You have listed all the reasons why its time to move on from this coaching staff. They are not good at what they do. LaFleur is being exposed as depending on a very savvy, veteran QB to help win games. Remove that crutch, and he falls down. And then can't get up, because he never expected to fall. Add that although it was obvious to everyone else that Barry was not good at what he did, he shocked the world and kept him on for another year. The OC, Stenavich, was an excellent OL coach, but got promoted. And he is currently the second worst OC in Packers history. The list goes on. The lack of adjustments, the inability to tackle, the trenches belonging to the opponent on a regular basis. And having a LBer cover a WR? The answer that LaFleur takes the blame. Fine. So also take the fall. Too many coaches have been promoted to spots above their level of competence. And the players know, and respond accordingly. With less enthusiasm and increasing fatalism. And so do the fans.

7 points
7
0
Packers0808's picture

October 25, 2023 at 08:49 am

Wonder if Ml gave up game calling the plays, turned it over to the OC,and he move into the boxes where he could see game better and make calls. So far "in the cloud of dust" hasn't even happened with the Packers. This way as well ML can concentrate on the down to down play instead of having head in game sheet all game. Just a thought as if this could POSSIBLY make a difference?

1 points
3
2
T7Steve's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:24 am

If he goes up to the boxes, who's going to be the head cheerleader?

That's not just a job anyone can do.

1 points
2
1
Packers0808's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:35 am

I said turn the play calling over the the OC not LaFleur leave sideline.

-1 points
1
2
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:03 am

Stenovich? I don’t find that prospect particularly obviously appealing. It can’t hurt to try I suppose, but Clements might be a better option.

0 points
0
0
Packers0808's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:25 am

Just a suggestion, like you said sure can't hurt. Need something different, although I get crap all the time, but Clifford needs a shot at this point!

-1 points
2
3
stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:38 am

Coldwater you still can't deal it.
17-0
27-3
10-3
9-0

Packers outscored 63-6 in the first half of games vs. Saints, Lions, Raiders and Broncos
5:47 PM · Oct 22, 2023

-2 points
2
4
coolhand's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:00 am

Well, since the flower hires the coaches, he should get all of the blame for the poor performance of the team right now. He should hold his coaches accountable, and promised there would be changes, yet there are no changes. The blocking is poor, the tackling is poor, the play calling is poor, and I do not see things changing anytime soon. We just played the easiest part of the schedule, and looked terrible while doing it.

We were terrible last year as well yet the flower made no changes. He claimed he wanted "continuity" Continuity of what? Failure? What kind of reasoning is that? I really believe the flower has no idea on how to assess the ability of the players or coaches.

2 points
5
3
Razer's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:32 am

I think that you are right. The problem going forward is that few good coaches are going to jump on Matt LaFleur's ship. Whether it is known in the league or coaches are reading between the lines - this is a poor HC to hitch your wagon to. Not that you want to hitch a wagon to a leaky ship.

2 points
2
0
Tundraboy's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:21 pm

How ironic and hypocritical that all of MLFs promotions did was cause a lack of continuity of what was working the O and OL , at least more than the D.

0 points
0
0
zoellner25's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:00 am

A bad team with bad coaching and players who make repeating mistakes and cannot develop properly

3 points
4
1
BAMABADGER's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:07 am

Sad dilemma when you must mold a first rate coaching staff out of a bunch of historically unsuccessful coaches before these morons can address coaching fundamentals to players. MLF and Barry need to have their security pass revoked immediately. Alfred E. Newman needs to be given a package to get him out of the President job at year end then return all football operational control to the GM.

1 points
2
1
BAMABADGER's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:34 am

After all the AR fallout settled, I mentioned that we would see if the original success and last year’s failure was a result of AR, DA play or the excellent MLF offensive schemes. This year would prove the capability of MLF coaching without an MVP. We are seeing the truth revealed. MLF is a fraud. He learned nothing while being mentored under the McVay/Shanahan offensive systems.

5 points
6
1
Packerpasty's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:37 am

and it seems like many of those "hero ball" passes were MLF designs not all on AR like most have blamed...AR was routinely not amused at the play calling from MLF...eye rolls included...

2 points
2
0
PeteK's picture

October 25, 2023 at 09:46 am

--Five pro bowlers hurt, and our most promising WR rarely on the field. How good do the Niners look without some of their better players. I guess that coaching staff should be fired.
-- Our O line is bad because of injuries to very good veterans which is hampering the rest. I've heard it many times from pro players that consistency of playing together is very vital to success. Good line play makes up for deficiencies in other areas. Now that is a fundamental truth to offense success
--We are one third into the season, were the youngest team before we lost some of our veterans to injury, so now its not even close. I still believe that we will get better. I'll be satisfied with a few wins towards the end of the season and then look forward to a resurgence next year.

0 points
3
3
NFLfan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:08 am

Players sometimes lose their appetite to play for losing teams.

2 points
2
0
BruceC1960's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:17 am

I would like the chance to have a beer with Tom Clements and get his take on J Love.
Never hear Tom mentioned in any of the complaints/suggestions.

3 points
3
0
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:14 am

Clements has spoken quite often about why he came back again to work with Love and how he sees things since. Here’s one recent comment https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/10/02/packers-jordan-love-tom-clem...

2 points
2
0
stockholder's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:26 am

Sure didn't help the INTs - Has it.

1 points
3
2
BruceC1960's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:25 pm

I’d like to hear what he says off the record. Hopefully the same thing. I certainly value his opinion more than all of the experts that are chiming in.

0 points
0
0
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:22 pm

I don’t think Clements needs to worry about what he says. He’s a guy whom Rodgers persuaded to unretire and then decided he wanted to stay on with Love. He’s not worried about his next job and didn’t need to stay in this one.

1 points
2
1
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 02:42 pm

That's some pretty significant assumption there. Changing jobs is hard, he's old, and he'd have to move, lots of mitigating factors. Also too, we have no idea how much LaFleur is in his business, and what "system" he's supposed to be coaching. What we know for certain is Clements was great in McCarthy's system, co-running the quarterback school. But, (and it's a big but) he wasn't exactly lights out coaching the QB last year, and the limited number of games this year, well, it doesn't engender much confidence.

For the time being, I think Clements is just "quiet quitting". Collecting the paycheck and going thru the motions.

-1 points
0
1
LeotisHarris's picture

October 25, 2023 at 03:04 pm

"That's some pretty significant assumption there. Changing jobs is hard, he's old, and he'd have to move, lots of mitigating factors."

Tom's wife and son own an extremally successful interior design firm based in LA; google Kathleen and Tommy Clements. Rich and famous clientele. She's been the "bread winner" for the majority of their relationship. He also has a law degree. I'm sure he's not staying in Green Bay because he would have to get out of a lease and rent a U-Haul. He seems honestly invested in the development of a young QB.

You're other point is interesting. LaFleur is hands-off (read clueless) with his coordinators. I don't expect that he's in the QB room fine-tuning Clements' charge to the troops, but, honestly, who knows. I agree with the MM QB school take.

2 points
2
0
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 05:29 pm

NFL assistant coaches make more than Interior Designers, even successful Interior Designers.

Clements must make at least $750K annually, likely more. He also gets 5 months off a year (or there abouts).

1 points
1
0
LeotisHarris's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:22 pm

"NFL assistant coaches make more than Interior Designers, even successful Interior Designers."

I don't think that's the case here. Clements client list includes Jennifer Anniston, Bruno Mars, Ringo Starr, MLB, and NFL owners. Top 20 Firm in LA.

I intend to die on this hill, Bitternotsour! Even if Tom makes $2 million annually, his wife and son earn more, and they can sell a play fake.

0 points
0
0
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:58 pm

I'm kind of adjacent to the industry, and unless they are really at the top of the food chain, and also consulting on fine art purchases, there's no way in hell they make that kind of money. Also too, to have clients like that, you have to have employees and overhead. Remember that your client list doesn't necessarily indicate you did their whole house, it's also possible you connected them with a hammered silver tub and pocketed the 20% commission.

however, excellent play fake joke. you're a quick one.

0 points
0
0
Via.Lombardi's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:25 am

"They take two DL out (Wooden and Slaton) and replace them with a safety and linebacker. Result? Easy running TD for the Broncos, although the Packers catch a break as it was called back by a penalty. Take a watch as Andy explains this madness. Fundamentals."

It's a doomed season -- that's the reality. The Vikings will crush us on Sunday. Lions win the division. Best we can hope for is a Top 10 pick in the draft, but with so many .500 teams this season it will be difficult to break the Top 10.

HERO BALL on every play!

2 points
2
0
EskyBrian's picture

October 25, 2023 at 10:26 am

Nailed it.

2 points
2
0
NFLfan's picture

October 25, 2023 at 11:06 am

All of these men, Gute, MLF, Murphy, etc. are wealthy (LF makes 5 mill/yr) and really set for life. They must hear the roar of disapproval from fans, pundits, commentators, etc. Is it hubris keeping them in place?
If he refuses to leave, MLF could easily send out feelers for an under-the-radar, smart, young offensive mind to bolster his wretched play-calling-same for Barry. UW Madison is nearby.

Matt seems intellectually incurious and unaware.

3 points
4
1
LeotisHarris's picture

October 25, 2023 at 03:09 pm

"Matt seems intellectually incurious and unaware."

That is a perfect unique description of MLF.

And, yes, it's hubris keeping them in place; so full of their own juice.

1 points
1
0
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 04:17 pm

The huckster’s most basic trick: the portrayal of competence despite all the evidence through demeanor.

Oscar Wilde once said that “ If you pretend to be good, the world takes you very seriously. If you pretend to be bad, it doesn't.” LaFleur has that media demeanor, Murphy said it was his confidence that made him stand out and convinced him to hire him. Snake oil anyone?

2 points
2
0
Bitternotsour's picture

October 25, 2023 at 05:33 pm

All gas, no breaks

The illusion of complexity

All taglines, no substance

2 points
2
0
Qoojo's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:45 pm

At start of season, I was curious to see how MLF would do without AR. After seeing the lack of receiver development, and Barry still around and not improved, MLF is not the answer. Additionally, I think Stenovich was promoted over his competence level. He should be a OL coach.

So now i am left to wonder how long till the packers move on from MLF? I think Mark Murphy has one more year. I am not sure packers get rid of MLF after this year due to "his" stellar regular season record.

1 points
1
0
Tundraboy's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:46 pm

Well there's never going to be a dull moment this year. I'm looking at it as Santa Claus is on his way and who knows what Christmas gifts we'll get by then.

Looks like we're going to have to settle for a win or two. A single win between now and then.

After all of last week's somewhat shocking games all I'm really expecting is that somehow the players survive the coaching and rise above it in some positive way.

1 points
1
0
Fubared's picture

October 25, 2023 at 12:51 pm

I look more at comparisons to judge the packers.
The Lions rebuilt with years of losing and a raft of first and second round picks to beef up the talent.
The Vikes were more finess and decided the future is speed and having very fast receivers you cant cover and an O line giving the QB time to find them. They did this via the draft and great free agent acquisitions.
The bears had the world in their hands with 13 picks and 89 mil under cap and fd it up. Their GM is a mindless moron who drafted poorly and got free agents no one else pretty much didnt want so very little improvement took place.
The Packers drafted several receivers in later rounds, guys who 31 other teams passed on. They failed to beef up the O line even though your two best were suspect with bad knees and you were starting a rookie qb. DUH

Of the above which two teams have a future that is now, not three years from now. Its the two teams that drafted talent in round one. That is where the young and talent is. Young is just the rest of the rounds.
Wyatt? Does he even play when healthy? Waste. Watson a round two who had done nada. Reed, Toure, Doubs they can catch sometimes and run the right route sometimes. We have no idea if they have talent or are any good yet.
You can toss in piss poor coaching but the bears have that too so its a wash.

-1 points
1
2
SweetPotatoGB's picture

October 25, 2023 at 01:43 pm

I gotta agree with you on this one. I keep reiterating how bad the Packers offense was last year, and that was WITH all those vets and Aaron Rodgers. I still think these players have a lot of potential, but they aren’t being developed or led in a way that is working. Defensively, we can conclusively say what to expect from Joe Barry. I think that many of these guys would look a lot different had they been drafted by other teams. Can’t blame it all on coaching, but looking at the continuum from 2021-2023 I am absolutely most concerned with how this team is being led by the coaches. Minnesota isn’t going to give the Packers an easy time in any phase of the game, so I call on Lafluer first and foremost to get this team READY for a football game. Ready before the second half!

3 points
3
0
SinceLombardi's picture

October 25, 2023 at 01:45 pm

The young receivers on the Vikings managed to take down the 49ers. We can barely score against Denver.

1 points
1
0
Packerpasty's picture

October 25, 2023 at 06:36 pm

Will MLF have the Pack ready to handle the blitz...I doubt it...Love will be running for his life most of the time...

0 points
1
1
Coldworld's picture

October 25, 2023 at 07:51 pm

The Vikings blitz like crazy. Maybe Myers misses and we have Tom at C though. That may help.

0 points
0
0