What The Heck Is Joe Barry Still Doing Here?
Joe Barry is not a popular figure with Packers fans. But the team is keeping him around for a third season. The question is: why?
By BruceIrons
When the Packers hired Joe Barry, there were a lot of groans from the fanbase, particularly when they looked over his career history.
After some college coaching gigs, Barry started his NFL coaching career by spending a year as a defensive quality coach for the 49ers. Then he was the linebackers coach for a dominant Tampa Bay defense from 2001 through 2006, when linebacker Derrick Brooks earned 6 Pro Bowl berths, 3 First All Pro recognitions, 2 Second Team All Pro recognitions, and a Defensive Player of the Year award. Barry was Brooks's position coach while Brooks played the most critical role of the vaunted Tampa 2 defense, which led the way to the franchise's first Super Bowl victory ever.
He parlayed that success into his first job as a defensive coordinator. That role came with the Detroit Lions... who had an absolutely atrocious defense, giving up a hysterical 961 points over two seasons (including the infamous 0-16 season).
Barry was fired from the Lions after his defense's terrible showing, but found jobs as a linebackers coach with the Buccaneers, USC, and the Chargers. After that, he made it back to the ranks of defensive coordinators. This time, he was the Redskins DC. His tenure there lasted from 2010 through 2013 (this was a couple years after Matt LaFleur left). During that stretch, Barry did better than he did with the Lions, but his defenses still gave up an average of over 400 points per season. He was fired again.
After that firing, he joined the Rams, as an assistant head coach and linebackers coach from 2017 to 2020 (where he was on the same coaching roster as Matt LaFleur for one season). His defenses fared better there, even making a Super Bowl. In his final year, the Rams defense allowed the fewest yards and the fewest points in the league.
That earned Barry another shot as a defensive coordinator in 2021.
In Green Bay.
Prior to that, he had never led a defense that finished any higher than 28th in yards allowed.
There was a vocal outcry.
Barry had proven throughout his career that when he had guys like Derrick Brooks and Aaron Donald, he could coach a good defense, but when he didn't have Hall of Fame players, he didn't have a good defense. In fact, he had terrible defenses. In Detroit, his defense allowed the second most points in NFL history up to that point.
Furthermore, there were rising young coaching stars like Ejiro Evero (who, if you haven't heard, has been coaching some pretty good defenses).
Why would the Packers take a guy who flamed out brutally in his other stints as a defensive coordinator?
More importantly, why would they keep him through the years when the defense seems to be underperforming?
Well, I don't think Matt LaFleur or the Packers front office is stupid, so I'm going to dig deeper than that popular response.
Let's look at his results.
The first thing we notice is that his defenses allowed 371 each year he was the defensive coordinator of the Packers. The Packers have only had 6 worse defensive outings since Forrest Gregg was the head coach.
Ok, so they aren't keeping him for his stellar points rating. We'll have to dig deeper.
Joe Barry started his tenure with one of the worst Week 1 defensive outings in recent memory: a 38-3 embarrassment against the Saints to begin the 2021 campaign.
The defense was inconsistent most of the season, but the unit suffered some injuries to key players (Jaire Alexander and Za'Darius Smith missed most of the year).
By the time the playoffs rolled around, though, everyone was healthy and his defense absolutely clamped down the 49ers, allowing only 212 yards and 6 points. They also came up with clutch plays that should have made the game an easy win.
As we know they didn't win, but it certainly wasn't the defense's fault.
After pulling things together for an impressive finish, there was hope he could build on that the following season.
However, he kicked off the following season looking like he wanted to make the previous year's Week 1 thrashing look good. He basically left Justin Jefferson unguarded as the Vikings laughed their way up and down the field. The defense tightened up for a couple games after that, then proceeded let offenses led by guys like Zach Wilson, Taylor Heinicke, and Bailey Zappe have their way with them. They were bad most of the year, hitting rock bottom by giving up 40 to the Eagles.
But after the thrashing they took from Philly, things turned around.
The Packers defense didn't allow more than 20 points for the last 5 games of the season.
Again, he finished strong and gave hope that they could build on that the following season.
Again, the Packers retained his services.
Clearly, they see things differently than the fans who want him gone.
So what do they see?
Obviously, they see the strong finishes that flash what his units are capable of. Maybe Barry plays things more vanilla throughout the year, checking his team and feeling out his players and their chemistry before putting together the "real" defense that can carry them through the playoffs.
That would explain the way the seasons went. If it was all part of the plan, the Packers would obviously have to give him credit. They wouldn't fire him for following the plan.
Maybe there are other factors that the Packers value.
He has a lot of experience. He's been on teams that have both won and lost the Super Bowl and he's been on a team that went winless. With 12 coaching stints on his resume, he's been around a lot of programs and run the full gamut of results. That kind of experience has given him perspective into what works and what doesn't in a way that not many coaches have.
Also, Joe Barry is a high energy guy. That's something the team probably wants as they build out their young defense.
And after a long career with a fair number of devastating and embarrassing failures, he hasn't got down on himself or lost that energy - he still maintains an up-beat, up-tempo attitude.
For a Packers team that was called out by one of it's own players for folding in the face of adversity, maybe that is seen as a prerequisite for the job.
Those are positive traits, and his units have flashed some potential.
Maybe there's other factors, things that fans aren't privy to. Maybe they just want consistency with the defensive coordinator who runs the scheme they have been drafting and acquiring players for over the last two years.
We may not ever understand what the Packers see in him or why they keep him around, so the best we can do is look for the positives and hope for the best.
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__________________________
Bruce Irons has played, coached, and studied football for decades. Best-selling author of books such as A Fan's Guide To Understanding The NFL Draft, A Fan's Guide To Understanding The NFL Salary Cap, and A Fan's Guide To NFL Free Agency Hits And Misses, Bruce contributes to CheeseHeadTV and PackersForTheWin.com.
Follow Bruce Irons on Twitter at @BruceIronsNFL.
__________________________
Comments (117)
NickPerry
July 07, 2023 at 06:31 am
At the end of the day does it really matter WHY the Packers kept him for 2023?
OUR reality as Packers fans is Joe Barry IS the DC for the Green Bay Packers. The last 5 weeks of the 2022 season, Barry's defense beat up on 3 very flawed teams, then the Vikings which actually was an excellent showing by the defense, and then well enough to win in week 18 except Rodgers couldn't figure out how to beat the worst defense in the NFL...AGAIN, for a 2nd time last season to end the Packers playoff hopes.
This year as I pay $350.00 to You-Tube TV so I can watch every Packers game, I'm sure I'll have some answers. If they struggle to beat the Bears or Falcons. Make Derrick Carr look like Joe Montana in week 3 or lose yet again to the Lions in week 4, it's going to be a LONG year for Barry, MLF, and Packers Fans.
TarynsEyes
July 07, 2023 at 11:21 am
"At the end of the day, does it really matter WHY the Packers kept him for 2023?"
"OUR reality as Packers fans is Joe Barry IS the DC for the Green Bay Packers."
Yes, it does.
If the FO was dealing in 'Reality', Barry would have never been hired. The fans are not now living in Reality, but in the continued state of Hope as to Barry. Reality would be the team being a real Top 5 Defense, not 'Hoping' still, it actually comes home to roost.
PatrickGB
July 07, 2023 at 01:18 pm
I agree. But I wonder who else was available when he was hired? Once he was here Matt remained loyal (as is his nature) so we are stuck with him, my hope is that he learns and grows as a DC.
GLM
July 07, 2023 at 06:03 pm
The guy the Packers really wanted was Jim Leonhard, but Leonhard was banking on becoming the Badgers' next head coach. After Wisconsin hired Luke Fickell in November of last year, Leonhard left the Badgers. So, it didn't turn out for him either way. I thought we might bring him in when he became available, but the team had moved on and stuck with Joe Barry, for better or for worse.
PatrickGB
July 11, 2023 at 03:46 pm
Thanks. I knew that it was a possibility but did not know why it didn’t happen.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 07:24 am
Agreed that top 5 defense is what this much talent should give us, and not just this coming season. This isn't just hope and excitement, but in this case anxiety and even downright fear.
Those fears can be calmed in a number of ways, but the only real way that matters is results after this season, preferably a top 5 defense. Some here have said top 10, and unfortunately that would be a big step up.
At the same time there are some defensive stats where they were top 10 last year, so it's not all as bleak as it seems. One cause for hope I keep looking for is MLF, JB and Rich Bisaccia to form some chemistry and work together somehow that both avoids the most glaring problems and adjusts in-game. Meanwhile the entire coaching staff had a great opportunity to start this off-season right, which continues again in about 3 weeks. The coaching skills needed for player development are drastically different from the flaws we can pick on, so I remain hopeful that they've been putting on a master class of excellence with that; if so, that could carry forward for more than a decade.
Concepts like team personality and culture are intangibles with a lot of ideas floating around them. One of those is HC sets team personality as if his own magically infects the entire team for better or worse. Maybe that's reality and not magic at all? I dunno but I expect there can be nearly infinite variations on that, and every team is different every season. Certainly GB would benefit from some changes on this front. Leadership among players is itself an intangible within this intangible, and the veteran players on this roster trying to make that change is an interesting story line, I'd really like to know what MLF thinks of that and what he wants in this regard and how he sees their ideal role in preseason vs regular season.
Maybe all that's entirely too cerebral but 100% effort from every player on every down all season long is certainly a type of team culture that would serve GBP well and make a big improvement this year! Coaches get paid to lead and teach (as well as a lot of other things) yet I can still see key players having a role in this especially through the regular season. If that kind of toughness and "culture of winning" gets established this year, I have hope that this young roster can develop into a team that dominates or at least contends for a long time.
That becoming reality instead of just hope requires a LOT of things to go right. GPG!
croatpackfan
July 07, 2023 at 12:44 pm
https://www.dazn.com/en
Nick, go there. Former NFL Game Pass was sold to that web page. For season it cost something less than 200 USD for all teams and games. I believe just for Packers would be something less expensive. Just try. You never no.
NickPerry
July 08, 2023 at 10:07 am
Hey Croat...Thank you very much! I'll give it try definitely!!
Tundraboy
July 07, 2023 at 09:02 pm
Will you really be able to watch all the Packers games? I had such a bad experience with Direct NFL Ticket that I'm a bit gunshy to pay hundreds only to find out it's not available in my area.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 07:30 am
NFL.com seems to have been engaging in a strategy of bait and switch. More kindly it could be phrased as market penetration with a loss leader. Broadcast TV that's free to watch and paid for by commercials worked, but even with current ticket prices the league seems to be trying to get away from that. Constantly increasing profit is the way of corporate America and boy is that a hot button issue.
NickPerry
July 08, 2023 at 10:11 am
Really TB? I LOVED Direct TV Sunday Ticket. I've been a subscriber since 1996 or 1997, something like like. Whenever it was when Direct TV / Sunday Ticket first became available is when I started with them.
Sorry to hear you didn't have the same luck I did.
Tundraboy
July 08, 2023 at 08:03 pm
Me too!
Johnblood27
July 07, 2023 at 06:33 am
There have been positives since Pettine left and JB's experiences can lend value to his role, but the NFL is (and should be) a results driven league.
Turning out solid citizens and beating your rival 2 out of 3 years is college stuff.
The NFL is Not For Long, and in spite of the positives, there must be a significant showing this year given all of the talent and retention of scheme familiar players that JB has been given to work with.
It seems as if a dissenting voice (Jerry Gray) was let walk. That may help in creating unity on the DC staff and perhaps more buy-in from the players, that may be a positive for 2023 and beyond. That would seemingly give JB and his scheme a chance to succeed now.
The teams performance results should drive the coaching outcome. Put up or shove off.
IT
IS
TIME
Coldworld
July 07, 2023 at 09:26 am
There is only one valid reason why Barry is still here: that LaFleur thinks he’s the man who represents the best opportunity to get the most out of the defensive roster that LaFleur could reasonably hire.
If LaFleur is proved right, then we are probably happy. If LaFleur is shown to be wrong, then LaFleur is confirmed as a man who cannot judge or make good decisions about his supporting personnel and no HC succeeds that fails in that respect.
This season will tell us a great deal about LaFleur as an offensive mind, but also about him as a head coach. It’s not only Barry, but Butkus, Stenovich as OC and others. Pretty much everyone outside of QB coach and Bissacia. Interestingly, LaFleur was the driving force in hiring neither of those two.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 07:41 am
CW, I'll greatly benefit from your insight in evaluating how this develops this coming season! That goes for some other key contributors here too, but IIRC you are very locked into what this defense has been doing and I'm sure that perspective will really help.
Hopefully Dusty will continue analyzing plays throughout the season, that'll really help me too. Personally, I look for ways that our coaches succeed rather than assigning blame, and wading through all the pointing fingers this season will predictably be a thing.
T7Steve
July 07, 2023 at 06:36 am
"We aren't idiots!" (Famous quote I heard somewhere). Of course, we want continuity, even if it's bad.
Actually, we'll see if MLF has a plan and will take the reins of this whole team. Be nice to have some continuity there too.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 07:44 am
MLF having control over the offense will be novel more than continuity. Perhaps the same will be true of JB and especially in the backfield? More important is if these changes prove to be good things, and evaluating that probably won't be an easy task ...
Razer
July 07, 2023 at 06:48 am
I was not a fan of the hire because I was hoping for the guy who would fix everything on day one. We haven't seen that and we still see confusion and mismatched strategies. I don't know when or if that will change but it must if this defense is going to improve.
On Barry's side, I will say that the Packers have done a poor job equipping a good defense. We play a 3-4 and have one good D-lineman and no true nose tackle. Our inability to effectively play the run has been going on for 10 years. We finally have a couple of linebackers - yeah. And, we still are searching for a Harrison Smith type safety. We have draft a lot but poorly on this side of the ball. We have been blaming defensive coaches from before Capers. Front office needs to do a better job.
Dan Campbell said it best this year when he said he is only as good as the people he hires. My worry is that Matt Lafleur has a lot to learn about hiring the right people. One more year - we'll see.
Guam
July 07, 2023 at 07:08 am
"My worry is that Matt LaFleur has a lot to learn about hiring the right people."
Totally agree Razer! I was typing the same comment at the same time you were (see below). This is as much about LaFleur as it is about Barry.
HawkPacker
July 07, 2023 at 09:21 am
'This is as much about LaFleur as it is about Barry.'
So true. Most posters here at CH TV wanted Barry gone but LAF keeps him. If Barry does another horrible coaching job then we have wasted another year on the defense when we should have hired a great DC. Some were available and do not know why we did not make the change. If Barry fails, like many of us believe will happen, how does LaFleur look? Not good in my book. He has demonstrated that he does not do a great job of planning for the team they will face each week, poor in game adjusting and now holding on to a so so coach for at least a year too long. This is not a good reflection on our HC.
Take a look at our previous ST coaches. Look how long it took to hire the right guy. Shouldn't we learn from that fiasco. One of the early ST coaches, I do not remember his name, did a terrible job and LaFreur hires his assistant?? Red flag! It was not surprise that he did not work out.
Apparently, we are slow learners.
HawkPacker
July 07, 2023 at 09:14 am
'We play a 3-4 and have one good D-lineman and no true nose tackle. '
I agree. In another CH TV article, I commented that if we have two 1st round draft choices next year we need a stud DL and a good Safety. That will help.
Coldworld
July 07, 2023 at 09:50 am
“The choice of servants is very important to a prince… the first opinion which one forms of a prince, and of his wisdom, is by observing the men he has around him. If they are capable and loyal he will be considered wise, because he knows how to recognize their ability and to keep them faithful. But when they are lacking in those qualities, one forms a bad opinion of the prince, for his first error was in choosing them.” Machiavelli
TarynsEyes
July 07, 2023 at 10:27 am
The path to success for a leader is through his competent aides, for without competent aides, no leader can truly lead, less achieve the final victory.
dobber
July 07, 2023 at 10:52 am
"Dan Campbell said it best this year when he said he is only as good as the people he hires. My worry is that Matt Lafleur has a lot to learn about hiring the right people."
It seems to me that LaF has said that he was hiring a system (the Fangio system) and was looking for someone who knew that system rather than finding the best hire he could find.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 01:36 pm
Right, dobber! Everything we ran these past two years has been heavily influenced by Fangio related concepts. A lot of Quarters, Quarter Quarter Half, Cover 3.
Those all require not only quality starters, but quality backup players in case of injury, each of whom handles specific, multiple roles.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 01:33 pm
KUDOS, Razer!!! MAD PROPS!!!
The Packers and Gutekunst did do "a poor job equipping" the Packers D. Joe Barry, known for developing LBs, was hired as DC by the Packers in 2021, the same year we signed De'Vondre Campbell, a cast off of both the Falcons and the Cardinals. Campbell won 1st Team All-Pro honors that season.
Despite that, the Packers were want for NT and DL help. They were also hamstrung by an over-inflated salary cap, and the 2020 and 2021 NFL drafts offered 2 of the weakest DL draft classes in years.
Great point on GB being unable to stop the run for 10 years. Agree!
Campbell couldn't do it all, and neither could Clark. Yet, that's pretty much all we had in run stop. Gutekunst finally added ILB and DT in R1 in 2022. Both Walker & Wyatt shared rookie pluses & minuses, and required development as all rookies do. 2023 brought a bevy of additional players to the Packers D, each with run stop strengths. S Tarvarius Moore. CB Keisean Nixon. S Jonathan Owens. OLB Lukas Van Ness. DT Colby Wooden. DE Karl Brooks. OLB Brenton Cox Jr. CB Carrington Valentine. S Anthony Johnson Jr...
The entire D has been remade in the last 3 years, with the only veterans remaining: Kenny Clark, Jaire Alexander, Preston Smith, Rashan Gary, Darnell Savage, Jonathan Garvin, Innis Gaines.
Maybe that S you speak of is on this roster. We're going to be finding out soon enough. Gotta have the players. It's my belief it's taken these last 3 drafts to acquire the players Barry needs to run their agreed upon concepts. Now he's got a full complement of players at every position on D, complete with backups who fit what they want to do.
Good.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 08:02 am
GG, DL & S are big questions. There will be ample opportunity to see how they hold up. "Draft and develop" in action ...
Comparing individual players vs coach contributions will be an especially interesting puzzle this season. As always winning fixes everything, but even then this will deserve to be analyzed.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 07:52 am
Razer, many interesting ideas there. Isn't Kenny Clarke "a true nose tackle?" Well, not if they don't use him that way I guess, but why isn't he a true NT? Sincere question. I'm puzzled by him being moved away from the position.
As a separate issue, the rest of our defensive line sure has a lot of question marks! Coaches can do a LOT to evaluate and determine the best roster, and all of that affects how best to utilize Kenny Clarke. I guess. Or would it better to keep him at NT and build around him?
stockholder
July 07, 2023 at 06:59 am
I liked the Hiring of Joe Barry.
I finally thought they would do something
With the LBs. Fixing A obvious need.
The Lions sucked. Don’t blame him.
Just a lousy 4-3-4. And revolving doors.
They drafted Mega-iron and Suh came after Barry left.
I get he needed All-pros.
But he has to work with whats available.
A poor DL. Is what I’ve seen.
Why else do we keep saying," Clarke needs help.”
A cry only filled with late round hopefuls.
It seems like Barry knows whats wrong.
But protects the stars with relaxed zones.
And Guteys draft picks!
Yes- Barry isn’t the problem. It’s Gute.
Patching a defense and never finishing
what petine started.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 08:05 am
SH, we'll certainly have a chance to evaluate Gutey's picks. Or a bunch of them anyway.
White92
July 08, 2023 at 11:15 am
As bad as G-kunst has been, all will be forgiven if Love is the next HOF QB out of GB. If not, he and anyone he has hired should be on the next plane out.
ReaganRulz
July 07, 2023 at 07:01 am
While it doesn’t seem that common sense is being used, MLF is not a complete moron so there must be a method to his madness. All I can think of is the fact that the Front Office/MLF knew the offense was going to be going through major changes. And while the defense has been putrid, he didn’t want to rip off the band aid on both sides of the ball. We have good players on the D side, so firing Barry last year would not have been as drastic as having a new starting QB with a bunch or <2 year offensive players playing in a fully functioning MLF system. But who the frick knows!!
What’s done is done, so we’ll have to ride it for a couple of weeks and see what happens!!
TKWorldWide
July 07, 2023 at 07:38 am
Yes, but for longer than just a couple weeks.
ReaganRulz
July 07, 2023 at 05:16 pm
Yes, but rather have him fired earlier than later!!
Guam
July 07, 2023 at 07:03 am
The Joe Barry question is as much a referendum on Matt LaFleur as it is on Joe Barry. Lafleur has shown a propensity for poor hires before (Mennenga and Drayton) and this hire and retention may be the next in line. I understand loyalty, but the NFL is a harsh workplace and mediocrity should rarely be tolerated for long.
Barry has had two middle of the league defenses statistically speaking and has done so with a plethora of high draft choices. This year Barry either needs to produce a top 10 defense or be shown the door. And since LaFleur has opted to retain Bary, he should share the same fate as his DC. A coach who can't make good staffing hires (or repetitively makes bad ones) is not a championship head coach.
Razer
July 07, 2023 at 07:26 am
...A coach who can't make good staffing hires (or repetitively makes bad ones) is not a championship head coach...
A head coach needs to set the direction/expectations and manage his coaches. A young coach, who is a play caller was not a good fit for this team. LaFleur is probably better suited as an OC. I think that the Packers aggressive pursuit of Rich Bisaccia is the fallback in case ML doesn't get past the play calling sheet.
dobber
July 07, 2023 at 07:45 am
I would argue he was mostly a pedestrian OC with a desirable coaching tree pedigree prior to his hiring. We find out this year whether he can scheme/play-call his way out of a paper bag this year. Too many young HCs want to be play-callers too. I agree: that's a mistake for most.
I think the aggressive pursuit (promotion to associate HC) of Bisaccia was...
1. ...recognition of his work with STs
1. ...to keep him from being poached by other teams
2. ...to help set the tone in the locker room
I don't think he was retained to be a potential interim fill-in.
HawkPacker
July 07, 2023 at 09:27 am
'I don't think he was retained to be a potential interim fill-in.'
I would agree with that statement and agree with 1,1 and 2 as well.
I have read the statement previously that he was retained to be a possible HC for GB. It may happen but I do not think that is why he was promoted.
dobber
July 07, 2023 at 10:47 am
It's summer break...my counting skilz have atrophied... ;)
Agreed. I think the crash and burn required for LaF to be dismissed and an interim hired in season in 2023 is really low. Add to that the fact that a coaching change in the off-season due to poor performance (and not retirement/resignation) that leads to a subordinate being installed doesn't happen very often. Most of the time teams want a clean sweep and a fresh start.
The other question with Bisaccia is whether he really did wonders for GBs special teams, or if he just installed his personnel from the Raiders and they were just better than what the Packers had. Maybe that's saying the same thing...
croatpackfan
July 07, 2023 at 01:22 pm
Packers will not be able to refuse HC interviews of Rich Bisaccia by promoting him to assistant HC. That position is already one step down the HC position. So interviews for higher positions can not be stopped.
Second I do not believe that Packers promote Rich Bisaccia just for the title. I believe he is promoted to that position to take over all other dutuies of HC and left MLF to take care of the offense only. Lot of young guys, rookies, first time starter QB may asked for more attention than usual. Rest of the job is in Rich Bisaccia hands. That is my opinion. And I believe that was made in agreement with MLF. Team pressers will be held by MLF, but true job of the HC will be done by RB.
Joe Barry... What to say about him that was not said - positively and negatively. We all believe his chair is white hot, but with this FO structure, you'll never know...
vin0770
July 07, 2023 at 09:41 am
Agree
Lphill
July 07, 2023 at 07:09 am
Barry is a better position coach then he is D coordinator , teams running right at the middle of our D and he plays two down lineman, I just don't get that. I have very little faith in his abilities at this point.
stockholder
July 07, 2023 at 07:20 am
and he plays two down lineman, I just don't get that.-
Correct.- Lowrey and Reed. - Gone
Lowrey was not fast enough to play over the Lt.
Gute gave him $$ and never replaced Daniels.
This should have been fixed after the 1st 49er loss.
Razer
July 07, 2023 at 07:28 am
...Barry is a better position coach then he is D coordinator...
Hit the nail on the head. Thanks
Coldworld
July 07, 2023 at 09:53 am
If that is true, and it may be true if Stenovich too, then the implication may be that the man who appointed them is equally over promoted.
dobber
July 07, 2023 at 10:53 am
Happens a lot.
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 09:48 am
"" teams running right at the middle of our D and he plays two down lineman, I just don't get that. """
Please let me try to explain it so that it's easier to "get".
11 defenders on the field. The Packers like to play 4 pass rushers and cover with 7. Usually, that takes the form of two down linemen and the two edge guys.
Now, if we put a 3rd down lineman on the field, we have to take somebody off, usually one of our cover guys. That makes us stronger against the run but weakens our coverage. As such, the opposing offensive coordinator has a problem: "Do I continue to run, or do I try to pass?"
Your theory is that by playing that third down lineman, we'll give up fewer yards on the ground, and that's probably true. My theory is that it's going to mean that teams who can't move it on the ground against us will throw more, and that's where the Math stops working for me, because an average QB gets 7 yards per attempt, 10 or more for completions. Some of those completions go to fast guys downfield, inviting a big play.
But a good RB gets 5 yards. Teams gained 5.0 yards /rush against us. It's still better than throwing for 7. 7>5. If they have the ability to grind it down the field and get it into the endzone, then that's one thing. But that doesn't happen very often. Much, much more often offenses don't reach the endzone for one reason or another.
That's why we play 2 DL. We'd rather have teams try to run it against us for 5.0 yards per attempt than throw against us for 7.0 yards/attempt.
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 11:01 am
@Leatherhead - stop being logical. also, if it pleases the court, just call Preston Smith a Defensive end. Presto (Preston), 3 down linemen. Wait, let's call all the linebackers defensive ends if they line up at the line of scrimmage. bang, 4 man front.
Anyone remember Dom Capers freak defense? He had everyone standing up and no one knew who was rushing. Interesting concept that Bill Belichick adopted for a time.
Barry plays a hybrid "d" - some people can't wrap their heads around adaptability. The big issue with the D is that the Rodgers offense didn't pay any attention to ball control, and didn't milk the clock. it's on MLF to help that defense be successful.
mrtundra
July 07, 2023 at 07:28 am
While I agree that MLF is as much on the hot seat as Barry is, I feel that this will be the first year we get to see MLF's offense, on the field. I'll cut MLF a lot of slack if his offense isn't being changed by our QB, on seemingly every down. If Love can get MLF's offense moving and producing, I think we will be fine. Barry had better have learned that playing soft zone on 3rd or 4th down and short or playing players in spots they are not suited for, is not using them with their best chance for success. I want to see the new guys compete for starting jobs, on Defense. I want to see the Safety room become the best part of our Defense, no matter who plays in those positions. Our LBs need to step up their games, as well. I think Quay Walker makes a big impact, this season. Campbell, Hollins and McDuffie need to have solid seasons, as well. I'm not really worried about Smith, Enagbare, Gary or Garvin, on the Edge. New guys like Van Ness, Cox, jr and second year guys like Carpenter and Hamilton need to play to their abilities. All will see time on STs. Make the most of it!!
GregC
July 07, 2023 at 07:37 am
In defense of Barry's stints in Detroit and Washington: Can anyone name even one player from those defenses? Are there any defensive coordinators who succeeded without talented players? Also, it's obviously not fair to compare the point totals for the last two 17-game seasons with the point totals for 16-game seasons. The fact is, Barry's defenses in Green Bay have not been awful, they've been average.
Average is not good enough though, especially when so much draft capital has been spent on defensive players. And there have been times--lots of times--when our defenders haven't looked like they were following a great plan, to say the least. I can't unwatch that season opener against the Vikings last year.
At least Barry's defenses have finished both seasons on somewhat of an up note, giving us some hope that he has figured things out. And although there were some rumblings last year from players, Barry does not appear to have lost their respect. So here we go again. I'm expecting another average season from our defense but hoping for something better.
Vachio
July 07, 2023 at 09:30 am
IMO, that's the most damning indictment of him. The worst guy on the worst team in the NFL is a world class athlete. Any good coach should be capable of fielding a competent defense with an NFL roster, even if they're just average players by NFL standards. Bum Phillips said this about Bear Bryant: "Bryant can take his'n and beat your'n, and then he can turn around and take your'n and beat his'n...." That is a true football coach and Barry has not proven to be that.
mnbadger
July 07, 2023 at 12:33 pm
Wow, you nailed it.
Same was true of Lombardi.
Same was true of Belicheck for many years when he had stability at qb.
Last I checked, there's nobody on this staff that is being compared to any of the greats.
This is true from most teams, but if we are trying to be champions, let's find great coaches.
GPG!
GregC
July 07, 2023 at 01:25 pm
But what if they are BELOW AVERAGE players, as was probably the case in Detroit and Washington? And it's funny that you mentioned Bill Bellichick. We've all seen what happened when Tom Brady left. An immediate return to mediocrity--just like it was for him before Brady arrived. I'm not denying that Bellichick is a great coach, but the talent level matters a lot even for great coaches.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 03:34 pm
Such a great point. Well said, Greg!
DoubleJ
July 07, 2023 at 07:44 am
I wonder if MLF talked with Jim Leonard, off the record, after Leonard found out that he wasn't going to be the Badgers HC and asked if he wanted to coach this year. Leonard then said he was going to take a year off so MLF decided to keep Barry for a year with the understanding that Leonard was going to be available next year if Barry doesn't do better.
mnbadger
July 07, 2023 at 12:33 pm
Ooh, tasty nugget. I like it.
GPG!
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 08:18 am
DoubleJ, that's a very positive take on this. While I still see several other DCs that were available this year, maybe they were all gone by the time this happened?
TKWorldWide
July 07, 2023 at 07:45 am
I think Bruce got it right: JB’s got experience, and he’s high energy.
What would expectations be if the OFFENSE had 8 first rounders?
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 07:50 am
Oh goody, another column bashing a guy who put a decent defense on the field, held most opponents to 28 or less, was one of the better pass defenses in the league.
I don't get it. The defense gives up fewer points than the Super Bowl Champion, our offense was one of the weaker ones we've had in decades, and we'll sit here and whine about the defense. Sheeesh.
egbertsouse
July 07, 2023 at 08:51 am
You need to actually read the article before you comment. He wasn’t bashing the defense, he was trying to accentuate the positives. As far as the defense being good, just watch them play instead of burying yourself in meaningless stats.
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 09:53 am
I assure you,I watch this defense get stop after stop. I watch this defense hold teams to under their average week after week. I see them hold Top 10 offenses under their average, on the road even. I see them near the top of the league in takeaways and pass pressure.
Your interpretation of the article is different from mine. I would categorize it as "damning with faint praise".
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 11:06 am
I think that Orwell calls it "the evidence of one's eyes". Some choose to disregard it. It doesn't change the equation though. The offense sucked last year. MLF was afraid of an even diminished Rodgers. Even with injuries, the defense outperformed the offense.
dobber
July 07, 2023 at 12:51 pm
I think both were decidedly average...so **Poof!** 8-9.
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 01:07 pm
the defense was good "enough". Better than KC's. The offense was not up to standard.
but yes, 8-9 was just about right. the detroit game still stings though.
Coldworld
July 08, 2023 at 08:25 am
I agree in a general sense, but I think the O was expected to be weaker and yet underperformed even then, while the D was supposed to be a strength yet was mediocre and at times a liability. Which is a worse return? It’s sort of splitting hairs: both must be better and both must seem more astute and cohesive. Both must be better and consistently so and that goes beyond individual execution.
mnbadger
July 07, 2023 at 12:38 pm
LH - I've been "whining" about the defense but not more than the poor play of the offense and special teams (prior to K Nixon's explosion) just as much.
Whining can also be called pointing out the obvious.
Good teams, with good offensive lines and schemes, have made our defenses look pathetic over the past 3 seasons.
We may win 10 to 12 games, but we'll never win a SB if we can't beat a good team possessing a good offensive line and scheme.
JMO
GPG!
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 04:50 pm
mnbadger....first, my condolences at having to live in Minnesota (if you can call that living).
""Good teams, with good offensive lines and schemes, have made our defenses look pathetic over the past 3 seasons"""
Let's look at last year. We played 7 games against teams in the top 7 scoring offense, so we'll call them "good".
How did our defense look against them?
Philly was bad, worst of the season. The turnovers hurt, but still.....
Dallas was pretty good, and got the 2nd most points on us, 28. Not quite enough, on this night, as Rodgers got to stick it to McCarthy.
We played the Bills in Buffalo. They scored 27 points. Allen completed 13 out of 25 passes and threw 2 interceptions. Buffalo scored 3 points in the second half.
We had two games against Detroit, and they scored 16 and 20.
And we had two games against Minnesota, where they scored 17 and 23.
So which good offenses have made our defenses look pathetic? And were they offenses that made lots of defenses look bad? To me, it looks like in 14 halves of football against top offenses, we were OK in 13 of them.
I do agree about winning and having a good offensive line, and I've been beating the "improve the line" drum for a while now.
mnbadger
July 08, 2023 at 03:36 pm
LH - Touche to your comment about living in MN.
I lived my first 30+ years in WI and here for nearly 30 years.
From this Badgers' perspective, today's MN reminds me of the WI that was extremely hard to leave.
You may not like to hear this, but many locals laugh at the way the state motto still says Forward but state's actions say Hee Haw!
Nothing personal, but what a mess.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 01:57 pm
100%, LH. In the first game of each the 2021 & 2022 seasons referenced by Bruce (NO and MIN), that AR lead O was a combined 4-19 on 3rd down, 2-5 on 4th down, allowed 6 sacks, 3 INTs, lost 2 Fumbles and punted 8 times... a 53.57 Comp% and a 64.71 Comp%...
But, JOE BARRY!!!
Bullshit.
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 05:02 pm
It kind of feels like that to me. Don't Look Here. Way back in 2002, Coldhardfootballfacts broke down this phenomenon, where Packer fans perceive the offense as being better than the defense when the data doesn't really support it. It's happened a lot. We seem incapable of laying the blame on the QB who helped get us there, even if he throws some killer picks, or fails in big games. So we'll blame the long snapper, or the defense. Anything to distract.
dobber said what been saying, and expanded it. The offense was average, the defense was average, we were 8-9. But KC showed that you can win with an average defense, if you're a good offense.
XXXXXXXXXX
GG, it's not the first games of the 2021 and 2022 seasons, although it'll be nice if the offense gets off the bus this time. It was the last games. In 2021, at home, #1 seed, and the offense just stopped working after the Lewis fumble. A total lack of resiliency, IMO. In 2022, in a must win game in what was his final game as a Packer, he took the field with all of our preferred starters on offense, and managed to score 16 points against a terrible defense. One more successful drive would have meant the playoffs.
Our seasons end because our best players don't play their best in that game.
White92
July 08, 2023 at 11:24 am
And somehow not playing the QB at all in preseason doesn't matter...
packerbackerjim
July 07, 2023 at 07:54 am
Bum Phillips had an observation about an opposing coach: “He could take his’n and beat your’n. And then take your’n and beat his’n”. Barry couldn’t do either. Given the resources allocated to the defense, the whole is less than the sum of its parts.
TKWorldWide
July 07, 2023 at 10:56 am
Yes!
I think of that Bum Phillips quote all the time!
Luv ya, blue!
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 11:07 am
i don't believe that's a bum phillips quote, I think it's from college ball, and was about bear bryant.
TKWorldWide
July 08, 2023 at 07:50 am
I thought it was Phillips referring to Tom Landry. But regardless, it’s a great idea! How often do you hear a coach’s accomplishments minimized by someone saying, “Sure, he’s a highly successful head coach, but he had Rodgers”?
Belichik/Brady, Stu Jackson/MJ, Pete Carrol/Legion of Boom…on and on it goes.
Coldworld
July 08, 2023 at 10:28 am
A quick internet search suggests it is ascribed Bum Phillips by many sources and anecdotes. Supposedly the reference is a mystery. Cant say I knew, but I like that quote.
Bitternotsour
July 09, 2023 at 10:05 am
Seems like time immemorial.
“That Fa-rott, he’s so good that he can take his’n and beat your’n or he can take your’n and beat his’n” was said by Clemson head football coach Frank Howard (1909-1996) about Missouri head football coach Don Faurot (1902-1995). The saying was said about college football coach Paul “Bear” Bryant (1913-1983) in 1960 and again in 1974. NFL Houston Oilers head coach Bum Phillips (1923-2013) said it in 1979 about Miami Dolphins head coach Don Shula.
2 October 1950, Emporia (KS) Daily Gazette, “Wins Either Way,” pg. 7, col. 1:
Although Frank Howard’s Clemson Tigers walloped Don Faurot’s Missouri ditto, 34-0, Saturday, nobody has more respect for Faurot’s coaching that Howard. After their Gator bowl tussle in 1949, Howard quoted a Carolina farmer (probably an imaginary one) this way: “That Fa-rott, he’s so good that he can take his’n and beat your’n or he can take your’n and beat his’n.”
24 January 1957, Aiken (SC) Standard and Review, “Palmetto Sports,” pg. 6, col. 4:
Many words have been used to describe the coaching ability of the late Billy Laval. Among the best is attributed to an unidentified night watchman at Clemson College. “He could take his’n and beat your’n, or he could take your’n and beat his’n.”
11 March 1960, Corpus Christi (TX) Times, “Sports Tidbits” by Emil Tagliabue, pg. 48, col. 2:
Today’s best laugh, lifted by an article by Boyce House entitled “Humor in Sports.” Back when Bear Bryant was coaching Texas A&M, a visitor asked a Bryan shoeshine boy, “what kind of a coach is Bryant?”. The boy replied, “He can take his’n and beat your’n, or he can take your’n and beat his’n.”
16 December 1965, The Daily Courier (Connellsville, PA), “Sports Notes” by Jim Kriek, pg. 9, col. 1:
Howard also paid the highest compliment to Coach Gaither, whose success has been nothing shor of phenomenal at the Florida Negro college, when he said “Old Jake, here, he can take ‘hisn’ and beat ‘yourn’ or take ‘yourn’ and beat ‘hisn’.”
(Clemson head football coach Frank Howard on Florida A&M head football coach Jake Gaither.—ed.)
Google News Archive
13 December 1974, Miami (FL) News, “Alabama returns five sacks of mail” by John Crittendon, pg. 1C, col. 1:
The top tribute to Paul Bryant, who has gotten his share, comes from Jake Gaither, who said, “Bryant can take his’n and whip your’n and he can take your’n and whip his’n.”
TxFred
July 07, 2023 at 08:15 am
IMO, JB is a product of "The Peter Principle" Promoted beyond his skill level. Better position coach, than coordinator. If the defense shows signs of weakness, he won't finish the year.
HawkPacker
July 07, 2023 at 09:34 am
'If the defense shows signs of weakness, he won't finish the year.'
That would be hard to believe. Why make a change during the year when you could have made the decision at the end of last season and have had a whole off season to get ready for a new direction.
Sorry, won't happen.
lou
July 07, 2023 at 08:28 am
Why is he still there ? Look how long it took to hire a competent Special Teams Co-ordinator, they waited until special teams blew a chance to go to the NFC Championship Game and it was so embarrasing on the national stage they were forced to do it.
LeotisHarris
July 07, 2023 at 08:34 am
"There was a vocal outcry." That's a great line, Bruce.
As far as our friend Joe, everyone has to be somewhere. There was a period of time during the evolution of the Grateful Dead when the band wanted to fire Bob Weir, but no one had the guts to tell him and he just kept showing up for rehearsals and gigs. I suspect that's the case with LaFleur's nonconfrontational style. It'll take an internal vocal outcry to move on from Coach Barry.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 08:29 am
GBP defense as the Grateful Dead, now that's an interesting comparison! There are times our JB defense made me feel like I would have been grateful to be dead, hopefully that's behind us. Somehow.
White92
July 08, 2023 at 11:31 am
Interesting observation. MLF doesn't seem to like confrontation. Bad ST coaches and players are allowed to continue, bad D player behavior occurs, and his QB is allowed to go rogue. I really don't think MLF has what it takes to be a truly great head coach.
TXCHEESE
July 07, 2023 at 09:03 am
NP said it best. Does it really matter why? We can only hope there was a come to Jesus meeting at seasons' end letting Mr. Barry know there will be no slow start in the coming season. The defense has plenty of talent and plenty of speed to hold their own against anyone. He needs to allow these guys to be aggressive, but not reckless.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 08:35 am
"Not reckless."
Indeed I seem to remember a certain Clay Matthews and a Reggie White making wrecks in opposing backfields. I reviewed seasons and stats before and after their arrival and concluded that I wanted to see edge rusher as a draft priority.
Count me in the camp that's happy with the Luke Ness Monster pick, and currently high on Gutey. Of course that's hope rather than reality, and rookie seasons don't always tell the tale of a player's career.
I still hope to see lots of wrecked opposing backfields!
RCPackerFan
July 07, 2023 at 09:11 am
Barry is definitely not a fan favorite around here. When he first came a lot of people didn't like him before he was signed, but I was willing to give him a chance.
There are obstacles every year a team and coaches have to overcome. One of the biggest ones last year was when Gary went down. I heard a stat last year that showed what the loss of Gary meant to the defense. Before Gary got injured the defense pass rush success rate was 2nd best in the league. After Gary got hurt they were the 5th worst in the league. That shows how much of a difference one stud player made for us.
We have good talent on the defense. We don't know when Gary will be back, but Smith is here as the steady veteran. Enagbare will hopefully take a step. Hollins I thought provided a nice rush as a rotational guy. A full offseason should help him. Then they added Van Ness. He is a guy that could come in right away and cause problems for offenses. On the DL we have Clark who is a stud. Then we have Wyatt who looks like he could take a leap this year. He put good stuff on tape but didn't get a lot of playing time. Slaton is a good player as well. But also adding Wooden and Brooks should really help the depth and rotation. We have Campbell and Walker. Walker has the skills to be a pro bowl player and if he takes a step mentally, he will be one soon. We have a really good set of CB's. Alexander is one of the best in the league and Douglas has been very good in GB.
We have plenty of talent on the defense to be good. Especially if a few of these rookie pass rushers can come in and perform well, our defense should be really good. The question will come down to the coaching. I have faith that Barry will be able to do something with the players they have.
But the first 3rd and 5 or less and our DB's are 10+ yards off the ball, i may not have a tv anymore.
mnbadger
July 07, 2023 at 12:42 pm
RC, I can only listen to the radio.
Much less expensive to replace and I can do it outside, where I don't hurt anything or anybody else.
GPG!
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 08:39 am
RCP -
I agree with all that analysis. I have no idea how much of a role JB has in player development, but I'm hoping his skill at that is better than his in-game adjustments. Same goes for MLF.
vin0770
July 07, 2023 at 09:31 am
It’s not so much JB that’s why I’ve past posted I’m just not optimistic this year, it’s MLF. Do you think the fully grown MEN on this team feel they have a strong leader in charge? I think they roll their eyes at him and while they may believe in his intelligence, they know MLF has no stones! Biggest bona fides is JB cost him games last year and he didn’t fire his a$$. I think the strength in leadership the players possibly get comes from their position coaches and that’s it.
The season will have some issues it always does, and the players have to rely on MLF strong leadership to prevent a spiral from being a crash and burn event…I’m not optimistic 😢
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 10:21 am
""Biggest bona fides is JB cost him games last year""
I'd appreciate your take on which losses last year you'd like to credit to the lack of defense, as opposed to the losses due to the lack of offense?
We had 5 losses last year where the opponent got over 24. One of those featured multiple offensive turnovers than were converted directly to 14 points. In the other 4, where we held teams to between 24 and 27, we scored 22, 10, 17 and 17. That's a 16.5 ppg scoring average.
Let's just say that the offense and defense share the blame in those losses. A team effort.
But then let's also look at some games where the offense clearly cost us: The 7 in the opener against Minnesota, 9 against Detroit. 10 against the Jets? How good does your defense have to be to win those games? Unrealistically good?
I also don't get the anti-MLF stuff.......we've won more games since he arrived than any team in the league. We won the division three straight times and we're going to make it 4 out of 5.
dobber
July 07, 2023 at 10:57 am
"I think the strength in leadership the players possibly get comes from their position coaches and that’s it."
Players work primarily with their position coaches. If one of them (ahem--Jerry Gray) is a pissant, it doesn't help.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 09:13 am
Vin, I wrote a comment about the gist of what you're saying, which I've read expressed as "team personality comes from the HC." Is that basically what you're saying?
I can certainly see how that CAN be true, I just don't know that it always has to be necessarily true. I'll agree that it's not his strong suit in terms of motivating toughness throughout the team, and that has to come from somewhere else. If the organization isn't aware of this and doesn't actively plan to make it happen, I see little chance of just lucking into it, even with the easiest schedule we've faced in years.
Nobody compares well to coach Lombardi. The game has changed so much that his football specifics might not work now, but his intangibles would excel in any era. "The standard is the standard" should begin with HC, and Lombardi IS the standard! I haven't seen evidence of our HCs trying to emulate that standard, and that baffles me.
There are several ways "team personality" can come from somewhere other than MLF: he moves up into a booth where he gets a better view of the field, and RB as assistant HC takes over at the sideline. I mention this first because I really like the idea, and wonder if it wouldn't just WORK. Give MLF every chance to scheme guys open, including the run game. Utilize his strengths, minimize his weakness. RB seems to have the personality for it? This raises the question if it would make him less effective with ST.
Another route to the same goal is leadership among players, on the field, on the sideline, and in the locker room. I'd love to be able to pick MLF's mind on the topic of how he sees the ideal situation with this. What role does he think star players should have? How would he like to be personally involved? And how can coaching duties be divided up to succeed? If that's left to game time decisions just whatever, I feel that translates into weakness and avoidable losses. Careful planning should be able to beat these known problems, but that requires a lot of self awareness, some of which might be painful. I think it's much more reasonable than expecting to resurrect coach Lombardi out of MLF.
vin0770
July 08, 2023 at 12:11 pm
Ya I’m not comparing MLF to Lombardi. Two traits we the distant public can form an opinion on are: One the IT factor where someone has the natural presence that can take over a room. A room full of grown men might respond to that person because of the IT, the charisma and just are compulsed to follow. A few that feel like that are Tomlin, Payton, McVay, Shanahan.
Two: Then there is the strong silent type that people can rally around and follow. This person takes time to understand but they earn it by having the stones to hold EVERYONE accountable. They’ll teach you the way and give you the opportunity to make it happen and if you can’t, you’re benched, you’re cut, you’re fired. So this person loses credibility when they say one thing and players see there are exceptions so the words are empty. Or a ST coach is awful and is kept around until it costs you a playoff game.
After coaching 40 years I’ve witnessed both types of leadership up close and the team clearly rallies around either and it’s palpable. My opinion is MLF is not a great leader…I’m not optimistic he becomes one 😢
13TimeChamps
July 07, 2023 at 10:39 am
I think it's possible we may have the least impressive OC/DC tandem in the league.
We have a ILB coach masquerading as DC and an OL coach masquerading as OC. Taking it one step further, we may also have an OC masquerading as a HC.
Coaching matters.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 09:18 am
We've gotten outcoached in some critical losses, but we also lost to the 49ers in the weight room. Toughness isn't just mental!
Hopefully we at least have well coached O line and LBers. A complete team would obviously be better, but if this O line is coached properly (including developing and evaluation) that sets our whole offense up for success. Momentum doesn't make up for poor defensive scheme though. LH points out that maybe the scheme is sound.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 11:01 am
Bruce, you should be embarrassed. What a complete piece of garbage. I find this incredibly disappointing and expect more from you.
Your arguments against Joe Barry are loaded with bias and misinformation. I can't believe you would share such a thing, knowing the history of Aaron Rodgers to treat every game 1 like it's his first week in TC. Add to that the Lions roster in 2007-2008 when Barry took his first DC job. YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!
I won't share that roster. LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF, AS YOU SHOULD HAVE BEFORE MAKING THE ARGUMENT. Go ahead, look up the Lions Depth Charts in 2007 and 2008, and share with all of us the great players they had on D for him to work with... and while you're at it, please share the illustrious stats of the AR led Packers offense in Game 1of both 2021 v. NO and 2022 v. MIN. THAT's your argument??? wow. Complete garbage. No fault of the Offense there! That was ALL ON JOE BARRY...
TRASH.
Add to that you have the gall to finish your piece by leaving yourself an out? How about you qualify your opening argument first? You know, the one where YOU DON'T HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON, yet cry out to the world that Joe Barry is a complete piece of garbage? Why is he still here?
Very small minded.
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 11:10 am
lazy. clickbait.
sad.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 11:18 am
Imagine, Bitternotsour, not having anything but garbage for players and expecting... what, exactly?
Polishing turds leaves one with...???
ROD MARINELLI WAS FIRED AFTER HIS LIONS TEAM WENT 0-16 on December 29th, 2008. Instead, we get:
"Barry was fired from the Lions after his defense's terrible showing..." A TOTAL & COMPLETE MISCHARACTERIZATION.
TRASH.
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 06:00 pm
It wasn't hard to imagine. Those Lions teams were HORRID. If memory serves they had a tv personality as their GM and his drafts were atrocious. Their fans wore paper bags over their heads.
I have no idea if Marinelli was a decent coach or not, how could you tell with that stench of a team to work with. Same is true with Joe Barry. I still think this article and the effort was lazy clickbait - there's a lot of that writing happening on the site now -
mnbadger
July 08, 2023 at 01:11 pm
I can't be too bitter about content this time of year.
The lack of organizational activity means there's no real reporting, just editorializing.
We can disagree with the content but remember it's one person's opinion.
At least the author has courage to put out opinion and deal with our feedback.
Click bait, if that's what you want to call it, is all we get.
6 weeks from now we'll get back to meat and potatoes reporting.
until then, Click away , play golf, go fishing or whatever fills your time.
GPG!
Coldworld
July 08, 2023 at 10:33 am
Barry’s defense was terrible by any metric. Yes, pretty much everything else was too, but that fact remains. Hardly an endorsement if not necessarily a result entirely of Barry’s making.
TarynsEyes
July 07, 2023 at 11:06 am
"so the best we can do is look for the positives and hope for the best."
To 'Accentuate the Positives' has been an ideology for a long time, accepted by those easily duped into the realm of 'Blind Optimism', which I have been and remain a strong opponent against, as is well-documented here at CHTV.
The issue is it has you ignoring/denying the negatives which always come up and disrupts the solace of the former. Optimism through denial is the epitome of Hope, because Hope is a cover-up for the acceptance to do nothing. Who succeeds, the one with Hope, or the one who does?
I would never Hope that someone I hire will work out, I expect them to work out. Hope is a forever wait game, do is a now game. The NFL is a win now league, and Hope has no place in it, less you accept failure and all that that entails.
The Packers drafted Love, either to invigorate Rodgers, a success, or they expect him to be the next franchise QB. Hope, should have had no part in either choice. Whoever hired and retained Barry should be fired, if the 'Hope' of him, and evidently based, is not turned from and into realized expectations when hired during and after this season.
Hope has a high price tag, and I personally place little value in it coming to fruition. I remain the Realist, a doer, or as deemed by many, a Pessimist, but my disappointments are greatly less than those dwelling in Hope.
I cheer and boo with the same emphasis, but I expect to cheer more, not Hope to.
JohnnyLogan
July 07, 2023 at 11:39 am
Whenever I think of MLF, I get images of him on the sideline cheerleading and egging on the crowd or about to cry in the locker room while talking to the team after a win. Hugging players and telling them he loves them is one of his trademarks as well. When I think of Lombardi, he's grabbing players by the collar and growling "What the hell's goin' on out there!" With Holmgren, it's "Listen to what I tell you and do it!"
Then there's the Belichick quote which I think sums up the Packer situation. "Good players can't overcome bad coaching." We've seen it too often over the years with the Packers, Capers being a prime example, and now Barry. Third and five and the CBs are ten yards back. Who does that?
But MLF is really the discussion here despite this being an article about Barry. Barry is possibly on the hot seat but MLF is likely here for at least a few more years. He's the luckiest guy to ever get hired by a professional football team. He comes into a situation where a Hall of Fame QB carries him for a couple of years then comes last year's bad record and poor play, and the blame gets placed mostly on Rodgers. Now he has basically a rookie QB and inexperienced WRS, so MLF will be excused if he has a mediocre or even a poor year. He's uninspiring and unfirable.
The Packers are a very talented team. If Sean Payton had come here instead of going to Denver we'd be favorites for the Division, even with Love starting. I think it's a weak division so we may take it anyway. But it will take less cheerleading and more football smarts than I think the present coaching staff possesses.
Leatherhead
July 07, 2023 at 12:00 pm
OK, let's go with this and assume it's true.
. "Good players can't overcome bad coaching."
Then that would mean that LaFleur was a good coach when we were 13-3 and Rodgers was MVP. But last year he suddenly became so bad that Rodgers can't overcome him.
Your comment about MLF being the beneficiary of having Rodgers, who the organization had acquired years earlier. Is it possible that he was hired to help squeeze the last bit of juice out of Rodgers before he could be replaced with somebody younger and better?
If that's true, then MLF hit back to back home runs when he got two MVP seasons out of him. More wins than any other QB over the last 4 years. And now, we're replacing him with a guy we've been preparing for 3 years who we think will be a better player in 2023 than the previous guy was last year. That's the nature of football. I don't get how you win more games than anybody without football smarts?
TarynsEyes
July 07, 2023 at 12:37 pm
"Then that would mean that LaFleur was a good coach when we were 13-3 and Rodgers was MVP. But last year he suddenly became so bad that Rodgers can't overcome him."
The two MVP seasons were a result of both Rodgers and MLF agreeing to a mutually beneficial place, with both getting the rewards of that agreement.
Last year was Rodgers knowing it was over, time to move on, and doing a horrible cover-up performance all season long. MLF knew it, and a HC finds it hard to overcome the buy-out of his best player, who happens to be the QB. I believe MLF knew this before the start of last season, but I also believe he could have done more to offset Rodgers, like benching him when the thumb injury was an obvious-justified reason. Whether he had the ability or not is up for debate. It doesn't matter now, because he now has to prove Love was the intended true future, and not just a thorn to provoke Rodgers.
Bitternotsour
July 07, 2023 at 06:09 pm
What the hell does that even mean - if Sean Payton came here we'd be favorites...
Who cares who the favorites are. The only thing that matters is what's happening on the field, I'm no MLF fan, but Jesus, Sean Payton never went 13-3 back-to-back EVER. That, and he, Sean Payton hired and endorsed a cheating D-Coordinator. Sorry, Payton doesn't pass the integrity test for a Green Bay Head Coach.
mnbadger
July 08, 2023 at 01:19 pm
totally agree about Payton. seems very slippery almost slimey.
I prefer mlf over spayton this year for sure.
However, this is MLF's time to show if he's a good/great coach or not.
He has as much opportunity to win the division this year as he had in year 1 - albeit for different reasons.
If team stays healthy but underperforms, less than 7 wins,I'm not sure I want him back next year.
GPG!
splitpea1
July 07, 2023 at 11:44 am
The answer to the question is simple: LaFleur likes him, and and he has demonstrated, is loyal to a fault. Barry said in May that he had no doubts that he would be back; so there's probably little in the way of internal pressure within the organization to dismiss him.
What would be useful is that if there were more vocal leaders on the defensive side of the ball willing to stand up and rebuke some of these schemes when they consistently fail. I remember Woodson did this once with Capers and they had a long meeting that resulted in a better performance the next game.
Roster-wise, there are now 8 first-rounders on the defense, so we're loaded--for the most part. We'll really be banking on Slaton, and possibly Ford, to hold the nose tackle spot. The rest of the lineman are either more effective on the outside, or in K. Clark's case, get moved around to create favorable match-ups. I think one of the big keys to Barry's fortunes this season is how he handles/juggles the DL rotation; that, is of course in addition to deploying tighter coverage in his secondary when the situation obviously calls for it.
greengold
July 07, 2023 at 02:31 pm
BINGO!
"Barry said in May that he had no doubts that he would be back; so there's probably little in the way of internal pressure within the organization to dismiss him."
Has anyone wondered "why?" before jumping on this "Joe Barry is an idiot" bandwagon?
Could it be Barry didn't yet have to players necessary to run the concepts they wanted to run on D?
I see no other logical answer.
SicSemperTyrannis
July 08, 2023 at 09:32 am
GG, is it a coaching strength to run a system you don't have the players to win with? I'd consider it a better coach who could maintain that long term vision but adjust in a game when nothing works. I'd apply that same thing to our O line last year, which obviously isn't on JB.
I'm also still curious how Ja gave up so many big plays last season, even when he was in man coverage. Could be due to scheme being switched too much, frustration / bad relationship with coaches, or outright player decline. I'd certainly hope he has a few more seasons in his prime! Same with Stokes.
JBUBN
July 07, 2023 at 05:52 pm
Is it just a rumor that Joe Barry is an extremely good friend of the LaFleuer family?
13titles
July 07, 2023 at 09:12 pm
1.Actually there are times when I wonder if MLF is stupid. I can think of a certain special teams co ordinater he kept on…..
2. Joe Barry’s defence improved but situationally sucked. They did not stop Deebo although one may have guessed what the 49ers were going to do, nor did they stop the Lions at the end of the game. No one is fearful of JBs defence when they need to make a stop.
3. MLF is an OC. To me it seems like he wants little involvement in defence and st especially when he has a new qb
Brewcity
July 10, 2023 at 06:14 pm
I'm offering these thoughts knowing that they're a little different perspective: my theory is that we won't see much of a difference in coordinator hires until team president Mark Murphy retires. The Packers are a business and with the org structure he has in place, he approves salaries and personnel decisions (MLF reports to him, not Gutekunst.) My argument is drawn from observations and some insider reporting by Tom Silverstein that MLF is not allowed to make coordinator hiring decisions (1).
Early in his time as GB's HC, LaFleur attempted to hire a top STC in Darren Rizzi but made him a low-ball offer which he rejected (2). So the problem, at least in that case, was not MLF's ability to recognize and desire a top coordinator, but rather GB's willingness to pay the man.
Not until GB was repeatedly embarrassed by ST play, including it costing them a spot in the Super Bowl, did GB finally target and pay a top STC.
Also of note, Mike McCarthy seemed to hire terrible coordinators as well, while in GB, but upon taking a HC job in Dallas he seems to have learned to recognize how to hire quality coordinators (4). The Cowboys STC, DC and OC are ranked highly (3).
MLF is no fool. His hands are tied by Mark Murphy when it comes to opening the piggy bank and paying for top-tier coaching talent.
1. www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/report-matt-lafleu...
2. www.acmepackingcompany.com/2022/1/24/22899529/the-packers-went-cheap-on-...
3. cowboyswire.usatoday.com/lists/news-notes-june-17-2022-coordinators-rank-near-top-preview-trench-battles/
4. www.dallasnews.com/sports/cowboys/2022/01/24/nfl-special-teams-rankings-...
Leatherhead
July 10, 2023 at 06:41 pm
This caught my eye:
"""Not until GB was repeatedly embarrassed by ST play, including it costing them a spot in the Super Bowl, did GB finally target and pay a top STC."""
"". The Cowboys STC, DC and OC are ranked highly (3). """""
So after we lost out on the 2014 Super Bowl, we hired a top STC? How has that worked out? Does it mean it won't happen again? And again? Of course not. The Cowboys prowess with coordinators under McCarthy has resulted in .......how many playoff wins, exactly? I'm thinking it's one.
Chasing the superduper ST coach is fools gold. Yeah, occasionally somebody is good and lucky and gets offered a promotion to assistant defensive coordinator or something, and you lose him as your special teams coach and you're back to square one.
Yes, we've been embarassed by special teams play. No more often than anybody else. It's the nature of the beast.
PhantomII
July 10, 2023 at 07:53 pm
Nope, Never.... Have I EVER seen the stuff happen to GB happen to other teams. Part is the Prez being too cheap. Part is a legit ST Coach. Part is the GM not drafting certain personnel specifically for ST. That last is the HC not allowing enough starters to field the ST unit so there is enough quality players on the field. Having a 220 lb long snapper who gets put on skates does not help. Another is a Punter that takes multiple steps before actually Punting the ball. You know Coach...The stuff you taught in High School. Yea, IT WAS THAT BAD. Boys QB1 did not have a good 2022 season...and neither did ours.
Brewcity
July 10, 2023 at 09:04 pm
Packers in Gosselin’s special teams rankings:
2022: 22nd (but Nixon adds electric return game)
Packers hire STC Bisaccia.
2021: 32nd (lost to 49ers in Div round due to ST block punt and TD)
2020: 29th
2019: 26th
Packers hire Matt LaFleur.
2018: 32nd
2017: 16th
2016: 29th
2015: 17th
2014: 32nd (lost in NFC title game due to ST snafu)
When we look over the past decade of Packer football, it is apparent that leadership didn't place a premium on special teams. They had consistent kicking from Mason Crosby, but punting, KR, PR, coverage units were all subpar.
My point about McCarthy was simply to illustrate that he's since hired a strong staff of coordinators in Dallas, which he lacked in GB (particularly DC and STC). Given observational evidence and the Darren Rizzi example, it becomes apparent that someone in the front office is limiting the HC in hiring practices.
The article was about why Barry is still around--why, indeed, when Vic Fangio was available to hire this Jan? ("The Miami Dolphins snagged the most sought-after defensive coordinator candidate, Vic Fangio.") Barry runs a Fangio-style defense, poorly. Why not spend whatever it takes to hire the genius behind it? Coordinators don't count against the salary cap.
JBUBN
July 13, 2023 at 06:11 pm
Is it just a rumor, or is JB friends with the LaFleur family?