The Lass Word: Why Can't The Packers Build a Great Defense?
Many coaches, same results.
By KenLass
Dom Capers, Mike Pettine, Joe Barry, Jeff Hafley. Are they all bad coaches? They can’t all be bad, right? All had enough bright spots on their resumes to be qualified to run the Green Bay Packers defense. The Packers actually won a Super Bowl after the 2010 season with Capers.
Yet season after season, regardless of who is running the unit, Green Bay always seems to fail in its effort to build a consistently dominant defense. Hopes were high again this year, as Hafley guided the transition back to the 4-3 frontal alignment. The switch was supposed to turn the team’s pass rushers loose to go after the quarterback. Yet the single most glaring weakness on this team through ten games is the lack of pass rush. Rashan Gary is currently leading the team in sacks with 3.5. That ranks 65th in the league.
Statistically, the defense is not horrible. It ranks in the top one third of the league in all of the major categories. The Packers are ninth in points allowed, eleventh in yards allowed, twelfth against the pass and twelfth against the run. They are fifth in turnovers, thanks mainly to Xavier McKinney’s torrid interception binge over the first eight games. They look respectable on paper. And they do have their moments on the field. But they just can’t seem to get organized enough, and execute well enough to become consistent and dominant. No matter who they play.
It is disheartening to watch opposing offenses that are completely dysfunctional, such as the Jaguars and the Bears, suddenly come alive against the Packers and look like highly efficient and successful units. We’ve been blaming the coaches for more than a decade. But even when the coaches change, the results don’t. Either this franchise is incredibly bad at hiring defensive coordinators, or it’s not on them. Maybe it’s finally time to put the blame on the players, and on the selection of the players.
The last Green Bay defensive player to make AP first team All Pro was De’Vondre Campbell in 2021. As we now know, that was lightning in a bottle, and he hasn’t approached that level of play again, either in Green Bay or with his present team, the 49ers. Prior to that, Za’Darius Smith made it in 2020, and then you have to go back to 2010 to find Clay Matthews on the first team, with Charles Woodson getting selected in 2009. That’s just four defensive first team All Pros in the last fifteen seasons. It should be noted that only one of those four (Matthews) was drafted by Green Bay. Jaire Alexander made second team a few years back, but injuries have plagued him since. Keisean Nixon made it as a kickoff returner.
Another indication that it’s the players, and not the coaches, is the fact that defensive players who leave Green Bay are not exactly tearing the league up with other teams. Campbell wouldn’t even be starting in San Francisco if Dre Greenlaw wasn’t hurt. Darnell Savage is a back-up safety in Jacksonville. Others, such as Josh Jackson, Oren Burks and Kevin King, have done nothing with new teams. Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, another first rounder, was out of the league a few seasons after departing. The evidence is piling up that the Packers have spent years trying to build a top notch defense with mediocre players.
This season again there is a notable lack of star performers on Green Bay’s defense. The leading tackler on the team is Quay Walker. He has 72 stops. That ranks 37th in the NFL. As a team, the Packers are eighteenth in sacks. Many very high draft picks have been spent on defensive prospects. In addition to Gary, Kenny Clark, Lukas Van Ness, Quay Walker, Jaire Alexander, Eric Stokes, and Devonte Wyatt were all first round picks. All except Clark were drafted by Brian Gutekunst. Not a single one of them is on a track to be an All Pro this year, or possibly even a Pro Bowl player. Does Gutey deserve the blame for the lack of elite defensive personnel? McKinney is the closest thing, but he was acquired through free agency. And even he has cooled down over the last two games against the Lions and Bears.
There are signs of great potential in Edgerrin Cooper, Evan Williams, Javon Bullard and maybe even Brenton Cox. But the Packers need more than just a collection of pretty good players. They need somebody, anybody, to become a star, an All Pro, a consistent leader who inspires everyone else to raise their play.
The need for this defense to improve is urgent. Still ahead in the final seven games are dynamic offenses like the 49ers, who come to Lambeau Field Sunday, the Dolphins, and the Lions and Vikings on the road. If the Packers can’t get after those quarterbacks, they are in trouble. Green Bay hasn’t forced a single turnover in the last two games.
It’s still too soon to pass judgement on the Jeff Hafley system. Maybe the switch will suddenly turn on, and the players will start executing perfectly and consistently. There’s not a better time for it to happen than right now.
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHEESEHEAD NATION WEEKLY NEWSLETTER HERE.
__________________________
Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.
__________________________
Comments (56)
LLCHESTY
November 21, 2024 at 03:33 pm
Keeping Rebrovich, who last year was the pass rush coach, to coach the DL probably wasn't the best idea. Going from a two gap to one gap system it might have paid to have a detail oriented coach schooled in those techniques to help the players make the switch. Like Wahle said the youngsters have no ability to stack moves, if their initial rush is stymied they're done.
LambeauPlain
November 22, 2024 at 11:35 am
I agree on Rebrovich. The DLine has stalled and even gone in reverse since he took over.
He certainly did not advance Van Ness last year as the Edge coach. All Van Ness has is his college bull rush that is easily checked in the NFL.
So many on the DL are invisible on the stat line. Kenny may be suffering from "I Have it Made" virus. Wyatt has not been the same since this injury. Hopefully Gary starts to pour it on...at least you saw him in the middle of the acton last week. Enagbare has cooled off...he still nearly gets home...then runs past the front door. Cox is showing promise, however.
stockholder
November 21, 2024 at 03:35 pm
Blame Gute. -
Build the Trench. He didn't.
Having 1 guy never works.
Gary isn't Reggie White.
And Clark isn't Pickett or Raji.
The fact is; it takes 3.
And 4, depending on the front.
The pieces he takes aren't ready.
If they're not a CB, have a seat.
And I'll tell you right out.
The LBs won't look good until
they win up front.
LLCHESTY
November 21, 2024 at 03:38 pm
"And Clark isn't Pickett or Raji."
Nope, he's better than Pickett and better than Raji after he relaxed and got fat.
stockholder
November 21, 2024 at 03:42 pm
Been- Past Tense.
And Now he needs help
like they did.
jannesbjornson
November 21, 2024 at 04:32 pm
He needed to be moved at the deadline for some help in the secondary.
stockholder
November 21, 2024 at 05:40 pm
They made the playoffs last year with less.
jannesbjornson
November 21, 2024 at 04:30 pm
Players, not plays and this guy does not know how to select defensive players. I don't need to worry about Reggie. He was thirty years ago. Always a year , or two off the mark by keeping and over-paying non-performers. The buck stops in the personnel dept. Cooper can blast the A gap in the blink of an eye. Put him on the field. No Cornerbacks selected 2022-24 with high picks to augment the temporary duty assignment for Jaire. It is a passing league.
stockholder
November 21, 2024 at 05:38 pm
TT had trouble too.
I feel the front is wrong.
Clark No longer can take on double teams.
He's to light, as the OL are bigger and stronger.
IMO - I'd move Clark outside to LDe.
Put in slayton and your guy Wyatt.
And Brooks at RDE. Beef up VanEss.
Trade Gary while they can.
If they stay with Gary and VanEss at their
current weights. & @DE
They will need bigger LBs.
Cooper will always be hurt.
Coldworld
November 21, 2024 at 04:05 pm
It looks to me like the change in scheme is going to require another off season to perfect. Rather like the last time we switched, the DL is going to need some changes. That may, as already suggested, mean different positional coaching as well.
Bearmeat
November 21, 2024 at 04:24 pm
CW is right: It will take more time to switch schemes. The difference is up front. Edge players in this defense are usually smaller, faster, bendier players. Our guys have no counter moves after the OT’s set for bull rushes. The fact is that there won't be a fix this year on defense. We're going to have to hope for a few turnovers and elite offensive play in the playoffs to win. And we probably won’t. That’s just a fact.
RG and KC struggling this year is really concerning. Cap wise, we can't get rid of them after this year. We are stuck with them starting next year too. LVN is trending towards bust territory, just like Stokes, Wyatt, Quay, and King. CB is also an issue. Jaire is getting to be hurt so often. He's smaller and those small guys don't stay effective as long as the big ones. He’s going to be done here soon.
And further complicating things: We don't have the draft capital that we've had to swing multiple times at the defense in the first three rounds either. Luckily, we have free agency money we can spend after having almost none for 4 years. We are going to have to spend big on a pass rusher.
Hope springs eternal for next year. I'm as big of a Gute fan as anyone. It took balls the size of church bells to draft Love in 2020. And he was right about that. But dude has not done well on defense as he has on offense. Just like Ted.
CanPackFan
November 21, 2024 at 04:32 pm
My concern is the 4-3 scheme. And I am not sure another season will fix it? I noticed that LVN had a big contain problem in taking over from Preston. Both Gary and Clark are both underperformed. Frankly, if we can't find a DL coach who can coach a 4-3, let's go back to a 3-4?
stockholder
November 21, 2024 at 05:58 pm
It would have to be the 3-3-5.
The defense will need FAs
Guam
November 21, 2024 at 05:03 pm
"Statistically the defense is not horrible. It ranks in the top third of the league in all of the major categories."
And yet the rest of the article is about how poor the players are and how none of them have achieved greatness. I'm not saying that Gute doesn't have some busts, but two thirds of the league would like to have the Packer's defense right now. Some of these players have to be doing something right to field a top third of the league defense. Part of the problem may have been some over hyped expectations for a young defense rather than failure by the players.
Leatherhead
November 21, 2024 at 07:04 pm
Agree with this. Most of the league wishes they had a defense as good as ours.
As far as top picks going to the defense......I think if you look around the league, you'll see that quite a few teams have spent quite a few premium picks on defensive players. The Packers are not unique in that regard. Out of 32 first round players, and Top100 players, half of them will be defense. Maybe more than half.
Other than Clark, Gary,Nixon, and McKinney, everybody is on rookie contract.
Oh, and Alexander, too. These are our grizzled vets on defense.
splitpea1
November 21, 2024 at 06:14 pm
I have two related suggestions: First, the GM is underperforming with his first round selections. A first-round pick needs to be ready to play in the NFL and to count on athletic potential to make up for limited college experience, technical skills, or lack of instinct/intuition lengthens the development process. Once you get Gute out of the first round and he hones in on more experienced and polished players like Evan Williams and, on offense, Zach Tom, things turn out very well.
Secondly, why do some of these first-round picks have promising rookie seasons but fail to build on them? Walker has plenty of energy but often seems to play without rhyme or reason. Stokes, although hampered by injuries, has looked lost the past couple of seasons. And LVN needs a lot of personal coaching and a lot of hard work if he is going to take the next step... I hate to say this, but to me there is still a lingering soft culture issue when it comes to this defense. Yes, maybe a couple of coaches have been lacking, but it seems that it's a player issue more than anything.
Leatherhead
November 22, 2024 at 05:55 pm
'''First, the GM is underperforming with his first round selections.'''
This is the kind of stuff that has me asking "by what measure?" Then you said that a ''first round pick needs to be ready to play....."
I think Gutekunst has done a masterful job as GM. Every single player that Gutekunst has taken in the first round is playing (other than Myers, who finally broke). I'd like to know how many other GMs can say that. A franchise QB? Guys who are core defenders in an above average defense?
Why do so many players fall off the second year? The "Sophmore Slump" is absolutely a real phenomena. I think it's because you went through this whirlwind from draft day into minicamps and OTAs and training camp and scrimmages and games, and you were just swimming as hard as you could to stay afloat. By the second season, you have a little more confidence and maybe you have a little more than you should. Everybody else got better, too.
Secondly, by your second season, there's plenty of tape on you. Coaches see what works against you, and opposing players study you too. You're not quit the unknown that you were as a rookie.
Regarding the specific players, we should be more patient. When a 22 year old gets commissioned as an officer, he's there to learn. He's given assignments and learns how things get done. He's not drawing up battle plans against Yemen. Van Ness and Wallker are young. Their day will come.
Stokes, sadly, is a different story. He had a good rookie year, but injuries kept him out of action for much of his 2nd and 3rd seasons. Now, he'll be a FA in just a few months. If he can finish the season, it'll help him in FA, and I think he's making some business decisions out there.
I reject the "soft" stuff. These penalties for unnecessary roughness,etc., hurt the team. A 12 yard completion and then a personal foul and you've just covered 27 yards.
NFLfan
November 21, 2024 at 07:21 pm
It's unfortunate but I think the GB Brass needs to, (as we all do) make a more objective assessment of which players
are just not getting it and remove them or find different, less important roles-Walker and LVN.
Bench Stokes.
Hold Clark and Gary more accountable, install consequences, dock pay.
Gutekunst needs to self-assess and bears some responsibility for this fairly high failure rate re: first round D picks.
I still think teams need to assess for character before offering big contracts.
For example, I will never suspect Love's character. He will always give 100%.
TKWorldWide
November 21, 2024 at 07:45 pm
GB has 4 first round picks at the premium defensive positions of pass rusher and pass coverage: RG and LVN as rushers. Stokes and Jaire as cover guys. Frustrating that they’re not top tier. RG has his moments. Jaire is a good cover man but misses too many games with injuries.
Imagine if all 4 of those guys met reasonable, first round expectations. Yowza..
Leatherhead
November 22, 2024 at 06:05 pm
Yes, all our first round picks should stay healthy and be top tier. The Bell Curve does not exist.
TKWorldWide
November 24, 2024 at 09:43 pm
Not really sure what you mean there.
veteranviewer
November 21, 2024 at 07:52 pm
Gute needs to stop drafting athletes in the first round and start drafting football players,
NickPerry
November 22, 2024 at 05:27 am
^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOTHING else needs to be said! I'm so damn sick of hearing what a guys RAS score is when that same guy can't tackle, sack the QB, or cover even the worst WRs. Hell, each game our D-Line is supposed to eat, they get STONEWALLED!!!
The RAS score is a great indicator but it can't be the MAIN factor in who Gute drafts. Like TK said above...If they hit just on those 4 picks...Yowza was it??
Packerpasty
November 22, 2024 at 11:22 am
yup...Gute's bragging up LVN that he was a really good hockey player...big deal..
NFLfan
November 21, 2024 at 08:38 pm
Saleh should help Gute in next year's Draft if he's available.
LeotisHarris
November 21, 2024 at 09:51 pm
Robert should, and he should bring a nice, healthy snack for everyone, too. Maybe lead the scouts and personnel staff in a brisk round of calisthenics. Builds team *and* character.
Gute could issue each staff member a legal pad and team-branded pen, and ask them to write down pros and cons of each player under consideration. Someone, maybe Gute, should then collect all the notes and keep them in a safe place. Maybe giving them to Robert for safe keeping would suffice, if he's available.
NFLfan
November 21, 2024 at 11:40 pm
You work for the Packers?
dobber
November 22, 2024 at 08:25 am
He must!
He knows all the secrets of the scouting department!
Coldworld
November 22, 2024 at 10:08 am
Leotis is an anagram of toiles. He’s been hiding it in plain sight?
TKWorldWide
November 21, 2024 at 11:57 pm
LOL
dobber
November 22, 2024 at 08:12 am
LEOTIS FOR THE WIN!!!
jannesbjornson
November 22, 2024 at 10:37 am
He can replace him...
MitchAnthony
November 22, 2024 at 12:05 am
There seems to be a bunch of times that all the things that are being complained about with certain players were all pretty much spelled out in scouting reports. RAS scores and 40 times aside.
Lphill
November 22, 2024 at 06:44 am
Walker is not very intelligent I'm sorry to say he needs better coaching , constantly turning his hips the wrong way taking him out of the play I think the right coach can fix this.
Bitternotsour
November 22, 2024 at 10:03 am
it's a stunning indictment that a guy who (according to you) is not very intelligent and has wrong-way hips leads your top ten scoring defense in tackles. what's the world coming to.
MitchAnthony
November 22, 2024 at 12:09 pm
What defense in the NFL does not have a player from their middle linebacker corps leading their respective team in tackles? It is the position which gets the most tackle opportunities, either solo or assisted, on pretty much any team. If it doesn't, it is probably a very poor defensive unit for several reasons.
But the big difference is where those tackles are happening. Big differences in tackles being had behind LOS, or at the LOS when the proper gap is being read and filled. Tackling a 2-3 yard gain, or chasing a 5-8 yard gain for a tackle, or pile jump assist?
Walker is wearing the green dot because they've been putting him in for pretty much all the defensive snaps when he's been available to play. Just by his position and snap opportunities he darn sure should be leading the Packers in tackles. If he wasn't, I'd be asking what is this world coming to.
Leatherhead
November 22, 2024 at 06:03 pm
""What defense in the NFL does not have a player from their middle linebacker corps leading their respective team in tackles? """
I think the salient point was "top ten scoring defense". He's the leading tackler of a Top 10 defense. You know how many of those guys there are? 10, out of roughly 700 defensive players.
This microanalyzing of where the tackle is made is kind of pointless. It has very little to do with points, which is how the games are decided.
Lphill
November 22, 2024 at 01:22 pm
so he's an all pro to you? stop being a homer
Leatherhead
November 22, 2024 at 06:26 pm
BNS, I do love watching people pretzelize themselves to explain something that doesn't fit the narrative.
dobber
November 22, 2024 at 08:16 am
Every draft pick is both a project and a projection.
As I read this thread, I'm reminded of about 25 years ago when I installed a VCR for my wife's 80-year-old grandmother. She was so thankful someone could help her because, quote, "I don't know anything about electronics." I then spent the next 40 minutes listening to her tell me (she didn't have anything but a cup of coffee and a cigarette, no instructions or **God forbid** internet) how I was doing it all wrong and unhooking and rehooking stuff up just to appease her.
Two thirds of the teams in the league are behind the Packers. If putting together a winning defense were easy...they'd all be in the top third.
Bitternotsour
November 22, 2024 at 10:06 am
ain't it always the way.
Oppy
November 22, 2024 at 08:16 pm
If the Packers changed direction as frequently as the fans think they should, they'd be the Bears.
Bitternotsour
November 22, 2024 at 10:57 pm
fact check: True
NFLfan
November 22, 2024 at 11:05 am
.
dobber
November 22, 2024 at 11:29 am
?
Fabio
November 22, 2024 at 02:59 pm
If, despite all the choices in the first round and a thousand replaced coaches, the results are always the same, the problem lies in the management.
What's even more serious is that lately the injuries have all been to the knee tendons.
Leatherhead
November 22, 2024 at 06:28 pm
So, if management were good, would the team have consistent winning records?
LeotisHarris
November 22, 2024 at 09:14 pm
No, no, you're not reading that correctly. We need management to focus on knee tendon injury mitigation/prevention. I guess we'd be looking for a Director of More Normal Patterns of Joint Mobility to work in Football Operations. Could be a paradigm shift. Might need a Board Retreat.
Bitternotsour
November 22, 2024 at 10:56 pm
we also apparently need to stop drafting athletes in the first round. we should only draft football players.
memo to staff: no more athletes.
Leatherhead
November 23, 2024 at 08:16 am
We released Savage instead of paying him. We paid Clark and Gary. McKinney gets paid. That's it. That's who is getting paid on defense.
You get a guy for 4, or 5, years. Rookie year is kind of a learning year. After that, it's staying available and working at your job.
Working at your job doesn't mean "Be really good". It means....attend meetings, listen to the coaches, get along with your teammates, work hard in practices, try to improve.. That's what they get paid for. IF they do that for four years, you can sign them to another contract, but remember, you can only pay about 10 guys and everybody else has to be on a rookie deal.
Fabio
November 23, 2024 at 01:48 am
Hi Leatherhead
I'm not talking about records.
I was only referring to the defense. The NFL rules (I like them a lot) are made so that teams with bad records can become competitive in the SB in a few years. If all the best additions of each year (first second picks in the draft) are directed to the D I would expect to see (or sooner or later) results that lead us (for a period of time) to be in the top 5 D (max 10) . If this doesn't happen, we can say it's the manager's fault, but when we've already changed 4 I think the blame should be found in the management. That's all
Best regards
GPG
Leatherhead
November 23, 2024 at 07:42 am
If every team did that, would they all be in the Top 5?
The rules benefit the offense. You are correct that it’s not the DCs fault if somebody gets a first down or scores. Holding teams to around 20 is a reasonable expectation, but even then you’re going to have games where you can’t do that.
Three out of the last 4 years we.had a decent defense and all people do is whine. It wears on me..
Since'61
November 23, 2024 at 09:49 am
To build a great defense the defense needs to be great in the middle. That's where a great defense begins. Strong interior DLs or NT in a 3-4, great MLB or ILBs in a 3-4 and excellent Safety play. For years we have discussed here and we still do about the weakness of the Packers defense over the middle against the pass and their failure to stop the run up the middle.
Lombardi's defense had Henry Jordan at DT, NFL HOFer. Ray Nitschke at MLB NFL HOfer and named to both the NFLs first 50 seasons All time team and first 100 seasons All time team. Willie Wood, NFL Hoers and one of the best tacklers I have ever seen. And yes they had 3 HOFers on the left side of the defense; DE Willie Davis, OLB Dave Robinson and CB Herb Adderly. But it all began with great players up the middle of the defense.
Since the 2010 SB the Packers just have not had solid defensive play in the middle of their defense. They have had some good players but none really stand out or have lived up to expectations. They have McKinney now at Safety but that's it. Walker makes a lot of tackles but few at the LOS or for a loss of yards. Clark was good as a young player but the Packers ILBS and Safeties were not very effective behind him and now it's time to move him to DE. In this era of the pass in the NFL it's critical to have at least one shut down corner. Unfortunately Alexander who has been that player in the recent past but he has had too many injuries to maintain that role on a consistent basis. The Packers need to find a new shut down corner.
This probably means yet another defense oriented draft in the early rounds complimented with some defensive FA signings. But first let's see how if the defense comes together over the next 7 games. Remember they are still in the first year with a new DC and a new scheme. Thanks, Since '61
Fabio
November 23, 2024 at 11:58 am
As usual you managed to summarize my thoughts with concrete data....
It's always a pleasure to read you
A big greeting from Italy
GPG
Since'61
November 23, 2024 at 01:10 pm
Hello Fabio. I hope that you are well. I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks, Since '61
Fabio
November 23, 2024 at 12:01 pm
The D line is the basis for all the big Ds. For years now we have been adding players who do not have instant production but we always hope for a future which unfortunately arrives less and less often (Gary is the latest example. He performed decently for 2 years but took a top 5 payday that he's nowhere near)