Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - March 24 2021
The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.
By JerseyAl
Kevin King:
I had to lead with this, right? For several years I've said this about King -- he's fine with the ball in front of him and poor with the ball over his head. If the NFCCG didn't confirm that, I don't know what else could. King is simply not able to track both the receiver and the ball at the same time. If he's looking for the ball, he loses track of the receiver and vice versa. The main problem I have with King is WHAT he is bad at - if you had to choose, you would certainly prefer he was more susceptible to giving up completions in front of him. But that's not the case and it's not going to change. The Packers continue to keep the old gang together for at least one more run, but does that mean the end result will be the same?
Josh Jackson:
So where does this leave former second-round pick Josh Jackson? Personally, if an immediate-starter cornerback isn't drafted, I hope Jackson gets a fair chance at competing with King for the starting job. King is the better player overall, but when Jackson filled in for King, he did a much, much better job on the deep balls. Those "explosives" are game changers (cough... Scotty Miller... cough), and I'd rather know that easy touchdowns are not going to just be given away to the opposition.
Draft Thought #1 The Double Dip:
My gut tells me this is going to be a draft where the Packers double up at certain positions in the draft. My guess at those positions are cornerback to find the future CB #2 starter and add depth, defensive line to build rotational depth, and wide receiver, as every receiver's contract expires after this season.
Draft Thought #2 First Round Trade Up.
Brian Gutekunst has traded up in the first round in each of the last three drafts. I can see the same thing happening this year If the CB of their desire comes within reach - a repeat of the move to go get Jaire Alexander.
Jamaal Williams
Don't know that I'll miss anyone more next season than Jamaal Williams. While I look forward to "wasted pick" AJ Dillon teaming up with Aaron Jones next year, Williams fun-loving personality was infectious among teammates and fans alike. Here's a little memory lane trip with every one of Jamaal's TDs as a Green Bay Packer:
POLL:
A simple yes or no...
Will the Packers sign a free agent from another team before the 2021 draft?
By JerseyAl
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHEESEHEAD NATION WEEKLY NEWSLETTER HERE.
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"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of many hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He is also a recovering Mason Crosby truther. Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP.
__________________________
Comments (133)
NickPerry
March 24, 2021 at 06:45 am
I've been so damn busy at work I didn't even know about the Kevin King signing until late last night. I have to say fellow Packers fans, I'm not to thrilled with my boy Gute thus far this offseason. Now things could STILL happen, but I'm seriously starting to have real doubt. Now I understand Gute SPENT BIG TIME to retain Clark, Bahk, and Jones. But Damn, I wanted a new CB!! Signing an upgrade over King just opens EVERYTHING up in the draft for BPA opposed to reaching for a need at CB.
1) Rodgers is basically in the same situation he was at the end of the NFCCG. In otherwords after his finest season in GB maybe EVER at 37, is he really going to be gone after 2021 or 2022?
2) Kevin King? Are you friggen kidding me Gute? Did you even WATCH the NFCCG? Anty QB worth his salt has now looked at the schedule to see which week they play the Packers and get to feast on King.
3) Josh.. Jackson... I'm really starting to wonder if they think Jackson will be able to play in Berry's system. From what I understand they play zone about 80% of the time. Could the Packers REALLY be counting on Jackosn now?
Nothing will surprise me after this offseason.
Since'61
March 24, 2021 at 09:16 am
Nick as usual we agree. No one can convince me that the $6 million we just wasted on King could not have been better spent on another FA CB or on retaining Williams. If we’re trying to keep the gang together why not keep Jones, Williams and Dillon together as our 3 headed RB monster? Re-signing King at $6 million is disturbing to say the least.
Like you I’m disappointed and confused. Stay well
Thanks, Since ‘61
Minniman
March 24, 2021 at 12:05 pm
To me, Al's, Nick's and your comments all reinforce a theory of mine that in the NFCCG, King played hurt; and on the Scotty Miller play - right or wrong - was expecting safety help over the top......... how else could you explain letting a guy with 4.3 speed behind you???
Still, the contract number doesn't match the risk here.
It screams drafting another CB high again.
I guess that we will all be waiting with bated breath to see the contract composition as well as what the remaining, proven, FA CB's go for.
One point, if guys like Sherman and Butler are still sitting on the bench, does that mean that many teams will be eyeing CB's in the draft? If so Al, the notion of top prospect CB's sliding down the draft may be misguided.
Edit: I would like to call out that after about the 2/3 of the season mark, King started to apply himself in his tackling better...... less "business decisions" made with those horrible chop-block attempts that he does, and more shoulder. He laid a couple of good hits in the later part of the season.
jannesbjornson
March 24, 2021 at 05:14 pm
Naturally , I would have released both of them, bag a free agent CB and draft two more.
Nate-1980
March 24, 2021 at 06:42 pm
Gute is not a good gm, I have no earthly idea why he get so much credit around here..He had one offseason of decent FA pick ups, but he also had a good amount of money to spend, Z Smith was an awesome pick up, P Smith obviously not because he had to take a pay cut, Amos is average.. Alexander was an awesome choice, maybe savage will be another good one, Gary still has tons to prove after two years drafted at 12..I really don’t understand what this guy has done to be so praised, seems to me, he’s horrible at drafting and wasting picks moving up.. Then contradicts his own draft choices by paying players the he just used valuable high picks on( see A Jones)..What am I missing here ??
Since'61
March 25, 2021 at 10:07 am
You're missing 28-8 over the last 2 seasons. If the record was reversed (8-28) your post would make sense.
Beyond the coaches and players assembled by any GM are factors like pre-game preparation, injuries, coaching decisions and on field execution which ultimately determine the outcome of a game or a season.
The 2019 NFCCG loss is on the coaches for not preparing the defense and on the players who had miserable execution on defense. Some of it is on Gute for not filling the needs of the defensive unit.
The 2020 loss to the Bucs is on the coaches again for poor pre-game prep, poor decision making and poor execution by key players at critical points in the game. Gute does not call the plays on either offense or defense.
Thanks, Since '61
Thegreatreynoldo
March 24, 2021 at 07:13 am
One can easily make the argument that GB is better with King playing.
10-1 last year with King.
3-2 without King last year.
24.60 pts/gm without King.
22.36 pts/gm with King.
I would have preferred Awuzie ($7.5M AAV), but Witherspoon or Troy Hill, couple of others, would have worked for me at the price they got. Still waiting for details on King's actual deal. Probably is well less than $6M.
I tend to agree with Andy Herman (link) that while King isn't really bad and GB can get by with him in the regular season, he probably isn't good enough against elite QBs, like the kind often encountered in the playoffs. So, here's to drafting Newsome, Asante (can replace either Sullivan in the slot or King on the boundary) or several others. If the draft falls such that we should take some other position player, so be that, but then a 2nd round pick probably is worth a trade up to secure who is needed at CB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDJkw9_O09U&t=4s
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 07:33 am
"10-1 last year with King.
3-2 without King last year."
What are you trying to convey with that...?
Kevin King is a game changer?
I agree, he's a game changer all right...i watched the NFCCG.
I can't wait for the article telling us King turned down a 3 year..27 million dollar deal to stay with the Packers ....at a hometown discount. :)
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 07:51 am
I read it as that King seems to be better than any alternative that we currently have. Some truth in that. That in itself makes a point that this signing creates a backstop position in terms of not getting worse.
Now we need to draft corners. The CB. room needs an influx for the future and hopefully a true candidate to surpass King later in the year.
Razer
March 24, 2021 at 08:01 am
...I read it as that King seems to be better than any alternative that we currently have.,,,
I think this is the fundamental truth behind the signing. I also get the feeling that the Packers are giving this version of the team "one-more-year".
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:15 am
I know we will never know, but this could in part reflect what the team knows about his health down the stretch. Playing injured if the team needs you is to be respected. Was that the scenario with him? 2019 King would be a decent signing. Conversely it suggests no one behind him is seen as a viable replacement.
jannesbjornson
March 24, 2021 at 05:18 pm
If he was injured, what does that tell you about Jackson sitting on the Inactive list the last five games?
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 06:59 am
What indeed. I suspect nothing good.
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:07 am
You are correct Coldworld. There was no talent behind him. It was ignored.
Drafting a QB, a RB, a tight end, a project edge rusher was obviously more of a priority to somebody.
His signing was a result of ...we don't have any other options. His signing was an insurance policy in case he drafts another....Josh Jackson
Not unlike Ted later in his career, Gute was sleeping at the wheel on this one.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:18 am
Maybe, but Gute had other holes to fill and Jackson appears to be trending to a failure unfortunately. Time to focus now, certainly. The cap contraction issue conceivably impacted plans here more so than any other position.
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:21 am
Gute did/does have other holes to fill.... and we're still waiting
Thegreatreynoldo
March 24, 2021 at 07:55 am
Well, facts for starters.
Packer Aaron in his podcast seemed to suggest that the Packers might have just let Jackson, Hollman, Samuel, and/or Ento and any draft pick fight it out. That prompted me to at least look up what is readily available.
Leatherhead
March 24, 2021 at 09:59 am
We need six CBs on the 53.
Alexander, King, and Sullivan are the starters. I would consider this group to be no worse than average.
Jackson and Hollman are backups with experience. I suspect we’ll take a CB in the Top100.
Overall, as a unit, this doesn’t look like a glaring weakness to me.
flackcatcher
March 24, 2021 at 04:33 pm
The slots were the real problem last year. Both Redman and Sullivan regressed in the back half of the season. Injuries maybe, but the loss of Raven Greene on a special teams tackle changed how the back 5 played, never adjusted to his lost. In a strange way I felt Greene's lost cost Pettine his job. He was that important in Pettine's scheme.
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:10 am
Greene when healthy was instinctive and a good tackler. We really had no back up option to him. Perhaps Scott or Black may emerge in future, but not close last year.
To me that was the most glaring hole in the roster with ILB going into last season. Pettine’s plan B was Redmond. Nice that Redmond was willing but a sub 200lb body playing quasi ILB is somewhat unrealistic and as ineffective as it had been previously. Part of me thinks that Sullivan’s play suffered as a knock on once Greene went down.
One of my questions going into this season is how will Barry seek to address the whole ILB/Hybrid/center field D back question in terms of personnel types and where will we find them?
Thegreatreynoldo
March 24, 2021 at 09:05 pm
Starters aren't terrible. Hollman has played 112 NFL snaps. I like Hollman, but not sure I'd call that exactly experienced, yet you're not wrong either: two years in the system and all. Just one year under Gray's tutelage.
Jackson is experienced, though it was mostly a bad trip. GB need to take a CB in the top 60.
Nate-1980
March 24, 2021 at 06:56 pm
Watch out PF4L you cannot question the almighty Gute here, you already had 3 to 8 in favor of downvotes, he’s infallible..I guess truth escapes reality..
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:58 pm
Lol...thanks Nate
I got that impression, the first time i commented in here.
I just need to earn more thumbs down votes.
I have a goal of 1,000 before the draft and i'm behind.
But i'll get there :)
stockholder
March 24, 2021 at 07:09 am
I loved the signing of Kevin King. It showed Reverse thinking. From Negativity to positive thinking. The Packers Draft Board just changed. This staff has faith in King. And it's just about time the press doesn't Rail Road any player out of town. So much for arm chair GMs. Pettine wasn't let go because of King. That is so obvious now. So don't hang anything on King. Blown coverage be damned. We have a starter. And were not REBUILDING. King is worth every penny. The more options we have, the better the team. The CB position is officially fixed.
murf7777
March 24, 2021 at 07:34 am
I wouldn’t go so far as fixed, but I’m also on board with King. He brings continuity within the backfield. For a CB it was a cheap deal, a one year prove it deal. Last thing we want is another Hayward debacle where we let him go and he becomes a pro bowler. Let’s be honest with ourselves most on this board wanted Hayward gone.
The reality is other than the top 5 -10 CB’s they all have weaknesses and get beat occasionally. whoever FA we would’ve brought in within kings salary range wouldn’t of made this fan base happy. Old and getting slow or flawed.
Now, find your future outside CB in the draft.
jeremyjjbrown
March 24, 2021 at 07:35 am
I'm glad someone is happy about giving King 6 million. I would have guessed he would be cheaper, but we'll never know for sure.
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 07:40 am
I agree stockholder......with one word.
REVERSE
Lets stop picking on Kevin King, he's only had 4 years. Everyone knows it takes 6 or 7 years to truly judge a draft pick..............in Green Bay.
ESB has 3 more years to....."get right".
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:21 am
King isn’t great, but he achieved more than Jackson has at the same point in their tenure, which may be the root of the current dilemma.
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 03:53 pm
PFF has King ranked as the 92nd best corner in the NFL.
So what does this say about 2nd round pick Josh Jackson.
I know what it says....
OOPS!
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:12 am
"I loved the signing of Kevin King."
Bwhahahahahahahahha
"The CB position is officially fixed."
Bwhahahahahahahaha
Officially fixed?
Lol....I love you guys!!!
Fabio
March 24, 2021 at 03:11 pm
if you have 6 ML left I can send you the kil IBAN .... I don't agree with you in the least, but that doesn't stop me from joking with you! (smile)
Greetings from Italy
Go Pack Go
jeremyjjbrown
March 24, 2021 at 07:28 am
All I have to say is King's "6 mil" contract better actually be much less when the details come out.
I'm not a King hater but that is an awful lot for what he is.
Guam
March 24, 2021 at 08:01 am
Agreed jjjb. Given the one year deal, this looks like Gute wants to draft CB #2 this year and give him a little development time behind King. Probably not a bad idea given whoever is on the corner opposite Jaire is going to get thrown at a lot.
I hope Al is right and the Packers double dip at CB since they also need a better slot CB than Sullivan. Sullivan played well at times, but got exposed against TB and Brady. I would like to see an upgrade there too.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:38 am
I don’t think it’s impossible that we draft 3 CBs and 3 WRs.
DL, OT, ILB, TE and those 6 wouldn’t be beyond the realms of possibility. We have OLB prospects, prospects on the interior of the O line. We have 2 RBs plus D Williams and an interesting PS squad prospect in Patrick Taylor (one back up type each for Jones and Dillon), maybe we don’t draft a RB (although I see one WR as an option/slot/returner type and that could be a player classed as a RB).
The WR behind MVS, Lazard and, of course Adams, remains mostly a mystery. Even without the contracts for Lazard and MVS expiring, we need to restock there almost as much as at CB.
scullyitsme
March 24, 2021 at 11:18 am
Everytime you suggest we might need a wide receiver on this site expect lots of down votes. Mostly from leather head because he believes running the ball is the only way we’ll get to the Super Bowl. Just likeTennessee and Derrick Henry...oh wait.
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 12:03 pm
You're right , there's a 1% chance we'll draft 3 WRs. LOL
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:22 am
We did 3 years ago, we drafted none last year.
PeteK
March 25, 2021 at 07:40 am
We did add some depth bodies with Taylor and Begelton. I would like a WR/returner/slot type.
Leatherhead
March 24, 2021 at 10:02 am
Guam, that’s how I see it too.
jannesbjornson
March 24, 2021 at 05:28 pm
Sullivan is a dime guy. They now have to draft the nickel spot and shade a safety over King the whole season. Maybe they can bag a CB with a #4 or #5 that could turn out like a Doug Evans. They have to hit on two solid CBs in this draft. Why would Jackson stay on board?
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 08:03 am
Adoree Jackson signed a 3 yr 39 mill 26 guaranteed contract . He has played 14 games in the last two years. Starting CBs are expensive and hard to find.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:39 am
Wow! That’s a heck of a bet.
Razer
March 24, 2021 at 07:39 am
What has become very evident over these last years is the lack of draft results. We are signing Kevin King more because we don't have new talent stepping up rather than outstanding performance. And, like DL and LB, we will live with the deficiencies in our roster. Yes, Ted slipped at the end of his tenure but the scouting staff sure didn't do him any favours. I am glad that the staff purge accompanied Gutekunst. These next two drafts are crucial.
What is also apparent is that the Packers feel that they can win with this roster formula over the next 1 or 2 years. Given the cap restrictions, I don't know that there are any other options. I feel that we have painted ourselves into a corner. It'll be Rodgers leading us to playoffs and finishing OR...
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 07:56 am
It's nice to read comments from a knowledgeable fan.
Personally i think the Packers are going to "portray" they can win with this roster, simply because they don't have many other options....this year, or next year. Trying to keep the team intact, vs improvement.
Razer is correct about cornerback depth. Talking heads and Kevin King apologist like to claim that King has played hurt for 4 years.
Well.....If King playing hurt, is a better option than his back ups playing....maybe, just maybe, you need new back ups.
Maybe bring somebody new in to create competition, which aids development.
Gute will probably do that.....now....Little late?
I watched the NFCCG....it looked like the damage was done already.
4thandinches
March 24, 2021 at 07:59 am
I keep seeing these takes that we need a CB because of failed drafts. I see it differently. We need cbs on rookie deals. Aside from Josh Jackson, what CBs have we drafted in the last 4 years that haven't panned out? Missing on 1 out of 3 cb picks in the first few rounds is life in the NFL, not some monumental failure. I think folks are still haunted by Randall and Rollins but they would be gone or getting paid by now if they had panned out. Also, that was a different GM. I think it's time to turn the page.
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 08:19 am
Yes, drafting is not a perfect science and even the best of teams fail.
JerseyAl
March 24, 2021 at 09:14 am
Shhhh, you're going to ruin PF4L's day...
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:39 pm
Yes Jersey.....because drafting 3 starters in 3 drafts is now the ceiling of success in the NFL.
.
I've heard that other GM's around the league are envious of Gute's drafting prowess.
Apparently they are looking back at film of the last 3 draft war rooms of the Packers, just trying to pick up any of his secrets and magic.
And Kevin King is a future All-Pro.
Brett Hundley will play himself into the HOF
I have to bounce, i have to start cooking....the Easter Bunny is coming over for dinner.
2018: Jaire Alexander
2019: Darnell Savage, Elgton Jenkins
2020: ????????????????????
Am i going to fast?
I love you guys :)
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 05:44 pm
More like 3 starters in every draft, and some who contribute. His work finding undrafted free agents has been exemplary, especially when you consider that it's for a winning team.
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:44 pm
"More like 3 starters in every draft"
Yea...it's more like that :)
JerseyAl
March 24, 2021 at 09:31 pm
For the record, I'm not here to defend or blast Gutenkunst. I just like facts over making up shit and screaming it over and over. I find that boring as hell and it offers no benefit to this site, which is what I mostly care about in the comments.
Also, in the unlikely case you have some interest in, like, real facts.
The last three drafts, with the last two, drafting at the bottom of the rounds:
Starters:
Jaire
MVS
Bradley
Scott
Gary
Savage
Jenkins
Barnes (UDFA)
Likely starters in 2021:
Keke
Runyan
Martin
Key Contributors in 2021:
Dillon
Deguara
ESB
And then there are all the depth contributors, special team aces, etc.
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:20 am
I have a hunch that Stepaniak will earn significant snaps.
dobber
March 25, 2021 at 07:29 am
Like this kid a lot...hope his knee is ready.
PF4L
March 25, 2021 at 07:58 am
Holy Christ...Really Al?
First, i said starters, not "likely" starters or "key contributors"...C'mon man! Pay attention.
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I'm also not counting starters...as someone who may have started one game, or 4 games out of 32. C'mon Man!
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The last 3 drafts....NOT someone they picked up outside of the draft
Keyword: Draft
Undrafted free agent
Keyword: undrafted....not drafted....nobody drafted him. <smh>
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Are you really counting the punter as a starter? How many punters does a team carry?
Who is the Packers 2nd string punter?
I appreciate the effort, but that one is really weak.
*************************************
Are you really counting the Long snapper as a starter? How many long snappers does a team carry. How many plays is a long snapper involved in during the course of a game.
Maybe the Packers will keep 2 long snappers on the roster now that they signed Joe Fortunato, what say you? :)
I appreciate the effort, but again, that one is even weaker than Scott.
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MVS! MVS! MVS! MVS!
You're most legitimate claim!! Congratulations
Technically...you have me by the short hairs on this one.
I know MVS started games even when i made my claim (i've been a Packer fan for awhile.)
.
It's hard for me to wrap my head around the fact MVS is a starter. He makes some flash plays, there is NO doubt about that.
Matter of fact, that is the only reason he is starting.
If he didn't have those flash plays, it's doubtful he'd be in the NFL at all.
You shouldn't have to ask why, you should already know, but i'll explain it anyway.
He is not a proven starter yet, he is unreliable.
Receivers with a 50.5% target catch rate, usually don't make a team's roster, much less be a starter.
Understand that? Show me how many receivers on any NFL roster with a catch rate that bad....good luck.
We both know....if Gute would have picked up a receiver in the last 3 years better than the 4th round, MVS wouldn't be a starter.
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That's why..in my mind he isn't a starter, but in Green Bay....he's a starter, by default.
We all want MVS to improve, we ALL do, because he can be a weapon, BUT...
That is a pathetic catch rate for someone claiming to be a #2 receiver.
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I'm willing to meet you halfway though, because i'm a fair man.
Gute has drafted 3 1/2 starters to date out of 2 drafts. Currently blanking on the 3rd.
.
There you have it... in the unlikely case you have some interest in, like, real facts.
.
Thank you for understanding.
You're welcome
JerseyAl
March 24, 2021 at 06:14 pm
3 starters in 3 drafts. So basically, you just like making shit up and screaming it into the clouds? Congratulations, you've ascended to the throne of top useless commenter here. The competition was tough, but you did it. well done!
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 07:11 pm
Crap. I got work to do...
JerseyAl
March 24, 2021 at 08:57 pm
A ton of work to get to that level.
Nate-1980
March 24, 2021 at 07:20 pm
It was more than three starters, in three drafts, but honestly how many more? And how many are even average or above average ? How many of these “starters” are only there because they’re the best of a bad group ?
JerseyAl
March 24, 2021 at 09:15 pm
Starters:
Jaire
MVS
Bradley
Scott
Gary
Savage
Jenkins
Barnes (UDFA)
Likely starters in 2021:
Keke
Runyan
Martin
Key Contributors in 2021:
Dillon
Deguara
ESB
And then there are all the depth contributors, special team aces, etc.
Thegreatreynoldo
March 24, 2021 at 09:28 pm
2018: Alexander and MVS. Stud and average.
2019: Savage and Jenkins. Very good, both.
2020: None so far.
Gary blossomed at the end of 2020. Probably gets to starter level quality.
Keke: possibility.
Hollman: I've always liked him. I could be delusional.
Jace: not looking real good, but he can get open when he can play.
2020: not much in 2020. GB is counting on Dillon, Deguara and Martin to start in 2021 and is hoping at least one of the three OL turns into a player. I like Vernon Scott, but I admittedly could not articulate why at the moment.
The good part is Gute has found some plus players. Teams need difference-makers. He just needs to have some of those guys he took in rounds 3 to 7 come through for him.
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:27 am
Dont Lazard, Sullivan, Tonyan and Daffney count if Barnes does? I know they were not post draft UDFAs but they were still players brought in. Perhaps Tonyan is the only true starter, but all of these could see significant snaps.
PeteK
March 25, 2021 at 07:36 am
UDFAs- Tonyan, Patrick, Lazard, Sullivan, and Lancaster. Not bad on the developmental side.
Nate-1980
April 01, 2021 at 06:26 pm
This is why I respect TGR’s opinion, it’s based in reality..He listed 4 legitimate starters and one is MVS, which I like but doesn’t catch great.. A punter/ long snapper may be a starter, but both aren’t anything but average, and the punter actually shanks more than makes great punts..All the rest of those guys have either flopped, haven’t played that much or when they did were barely average..Best of a bad group is most of your starters Al, that’s just the truth..Gary for being drafted so high should have more stats in two years then he does, this year he better have double digit sacks or I don’t consider that a good pick..Like PF4L said you can’t count ufdas as picks..Everyone has high hopes for Martin, but I haven’t seem much that says he’ll be a great player yet..ESB A likely contributor ? How? Why? When has he done anything, a decent rookie season for a rookie?? I agree Dillion should contribute for sure, and as a second round pick, he better..I guess I’ll just have to accept I have different views than most on this forum, begiase I’m not seeing those drafts as great, a lot of wasted capital and picks..
canadapacker
March 24, 2021 at 08:10 am
We have spent a lot of draft capital on Dbacks - and if you think that you rank a draft after 3 years - we stand a lot better there than years 2015 to 2017. Kenny Clark is the only top 3 winner - and even nobody from 2015 on the roster. Clark and Lowry only 2016, Top 3 from 2017 are not that good but we did hit later with Williams and Jones. On average it is hard to tell if we have been good or bad as compared to other teams - we definitely need to be happy that Gute at least was willing to bring in some free agents. I wonder if we need to re-evaluate our scouting as we appear to be failing there on some aspects. Time to take best player available ( cough cough). I guess King is better that we could expect out of either an older guy like Hayward and really wouldnt like to see Sherman. But the success on the D will be on what we can do to help defend the run game and getting pressure on the QB gives the Dbacks a better chance at coverage. One final note on King - does anybody keep track of easy dropped picks - King had a big one against the Bears in the final game but that is a problem with some of our Dbacks.
Guam
March 24, 2021 at 07:56 am
Given that Redmond and Greene are still unsigned, I wonder if the Packers might move Jackson to safety. Jackson is a willing tackler in the run game and seems to work much better when he can see the field rather than chasing a WR (better in zone than man at CB). His make-up speed just isn't fast enough in the NFL, but his vision and ball hawking ability seem fine.
Jackson came out of the same Iowa program that Micah Hyde did. The Pack screwed up on Hyde (all pro safety in Buffalo), I hope they don't make the same mistake with Jackson.
Razer
March 24, 2021 at 08:19 am
I like the move to safety idea for Josh Jackson. It may be a way to salvage a draft pick and provide opportunity going forward. My suspicion is that Josh Jackson may be more of the problem than his role. Study habits, training and all those "being a pro" skills may be lacking. Given his draft pick, he should have shown more by now. We have one more year to find out.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:45 am
Jackson was moved exclusively outside because he struggled to read plays in the middle of the field supposedly. I strongly doubt that he will be a candidate for safety if that has any validity. I think it’s just as likely he doesn’t make the team.
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 12:15 pm
A possibility as we would save 1.3 mill this year.
JerseyAl
March 24, 2021 at 09:16 am
Your characterization of Jackson is quite correct, and yet, he did a better job one-on-one with deep balls than King did. And that is the rub with King...
stockholder
March 24, 2021 at 10:12 am
I believe it had more to do with his injuries. I always said the secondary played better when King was in there. When he led the team in picks, His jumping ability was obvious. And he covered the taller Wrs. But the biggest change in this secondary, was when they lost Greene. And Sullivan just wasn't as effective as the year before. IMO. They need to draft a CB that can play in the slot.
canadapacker
March 24, 2021 at 12:42 pm
The biggest issue I see with our Dbacks is that they come up and miss too many tackles. I just loved watching some other teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh when they screen to the sidelines - they always make the one on one tackles - usually for a loss and usually a straight up tackle not a hold type of tackle until help arrives. We had little of that and have had little of that since Woodson left. I dont know whether it is scheme, talent( via draft selection) or training but we need more of that Greene was somewhat getting close - but those rover hard hitting guys - like Harrison Smith
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 03:51 pm
I suspect the Packers let Greene and Redmond go because they have cheaper options (Black and Scott) whom they seem to like as much--and may have a better chance of being healthy and available. There are several good safeties in this draft who can walk up and cover slot receivers, and provide depth behind Amos and Savage...and could replace Amos sooner rather than later.
Thegreatreynoldo
March 24, 2021 at 09:37 pm
I like the safeties in this draft. Loved the idea of taking Chinn last year, but Dillon probably works out though really he had one good game, while Chinn played a lot but with some ups and downs. Jury out there.
GB looks pretty set at safety but BPA could easily be a safety type, possibly on more than one trip to the podium.
egbertsouse
March 24, 2021 at 07:58 am
I have the same problem with Gute that I had with Ted; good players are released or not offered contracts because they are too expensive, underachievers are rewarded with new contracts or extensions. Now, I’m going to hear the name Aaron Jones from everyone. Please don’t use the exception to prove the rule.
PF4L
March 24, 2021 at 08:13 am
Preach
MarkinMadison
March 24, 2021 at 08:40 am
Bakhtiari, Clark, (and Jones), all in the last 12 months. Who are these great players who walked in the last two years? Cobb, and that is about it. Martinez? Decent player, not worth the money he got. Everyone else who walked and was good was over 30.
canadapacker
March 24, 2021 at 02:12 pm
You can add in Daniels who had a bad foot but got paid big by the Lions TJ lang got a 3 year - only played 13 games in 1 season and 3 the next - Jordy was never the same player with the Raiders. Near the end of their careers some guys will leave the team and only the club knows about their nagging injuries and how much that they have regressed speed wise etc. Better one year too soon that one year too late. We can tell which teams are better than others by the amount of Dead Cap space.we have 4.1 million - Vikes 7.1 Bears 17.9 Lions 41.8 Eagles 39 mill Rams 39 mill
What does it mean ?? ""The NFL term "dead money" is when part of the salary cap that an NFL team has is going towards a player that no longer plays for the franchise. ... The "dead money" could hurt a team that is low in salary cap space. That NFL team could potentially miss out on a free agent because of the "dead money" sitting as a cap hit."""
I think maybe we have done a pretty good job.
Tedlyflyfisher
March 24, 2021 at 12:47 pm
Egbert, just curious. Are you related to Mahatma Kane Jeeves?
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 03:53 pm
You've just described modern salary cap football. Every GM has their pet projects. The situation in GB is not unique.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 07:59 am
I like Williams. Even though he stayed in our division, I wish him well. That said, we have a more ideal tandem on paper and one is on a rookie deal at least.
Jackson does not seem to me to be better deep. I recall one good play sandwiched between awful ones and grabby hands. His healthy inactive status with King struggling visibly late in the year seems to suggest that the team agrees.
I hope Jackson surprises but I personally don’t see him necessarily making the roster without a huge off season. It seems to be mental with him. Hope, but plan as if he won’t seems to be the best policy.
I agree that there will probably be multiple CBs and WRs in the draft and also the UDFA crop. Time to restock both rooms and fight it out in camp. We need to refill both pipelines
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 08:36 am
I agree, Jackson seems to lacks the speed and quickness to be a cover CB. He would have to jump ahead of Sullivan to become a starter. I thought he could transition into a solid S , but many young players have had playing time ahead of him even there.
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 03:55 pm
He would need to jump ahead of King (or need King to get hurt---which seems far more likely), given he doesn't play the slot.
blacke00
March 24, 2021 at 08:03 am
I can honestly say I told you so, that King would be resigned. I'm not real happy with the decision but it's the old adage "The devil you know..." . I don't want them to draft a CB in the 1st round, There is a greater need at DL and/or WR and/or RT. Hopefully, Gute will will see it that way and not over think this situation like Thompson loved to do.
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 08:43 am
The vast majority of fans would love that type of over thinking for their team.
packerbackerjim
March 24, 2021 at 08:22 am
King is poor with “the ball over his head” makes me wonder how does that happen when he plays 7-12 yards off the LOS? And if that is his Achilles heal, shouldn’t there be safety help? Jerry Gray has a lot of work to do this preseason.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 08:51 am
I want to see Gray improve someone not named Alexander or Savage, whom I would have expected to improve with experience anyway. So far I see no other player heading in a positive direction except Amis, who is a vet anyway.
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 12:25 pm
This was Sullivan's 2nd full season and could improve. An undrafted FA playing decent at a difficult position is a find. However, I would prefer using him in the dime package especially against a very good QB.
Fabio
March 24, 2021 at 03:31 pm
Who can tell me anything about Henry Black? How do you see it this season? Personally I would see it well in the slot
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 06:50 pm
He can tackle, he’s interesting but looks like he needs time to develop understanding/polish. A real preseason should help him.
Razer
March 24, 2021 at 09:29 am
Any description of a cornerback that contains the assessment ...King is poor with “the ball over his head”... does not bode well for the player. I will add... uses his arms effectively to windmill himself in pursuit of the receiver who just caught the ball behind coverage.
Yes Gary has his work cut-out this coming year.
RCPackerFan
March 24, 2021 at 08:38 am
Kevin King:
I haven't seen the final dollars but its probably worth bringing him back to be honest. I was already moved on in my mind, but if they weren't going to go get a Fuller or someone else, King will be ok to bring back. But he is going to have to earn it. I won't be surprised if they draft a CB high. And if that player outperforms King he will be starting.
Josh Jackson:
Had King left, I was fine with rolling with Jackson. When Jackson played there was no drop off from King. And honestly I felt there could have been room for improvement with Jackson. He just needs a fair shot.
Draft Thought #1 The Double Dip:
I can see them potentially double dipping multiple positions. I could see them double dipping at OT, WR, DL, CB. Any of those positions I could see multiple players drafted at.
Draft Thought #2 First Round Trade Up.
This year I really think its a year to trade down. This is the year where great players are going to be found later then normal. Because there is so much uncertainty with players coming in this year. There is no combine. Some schools didn't play this year. Some players didn't. There are a lot of questions on players. This will be a great year to have extra bites at the apple as they say.
Jamaal Williams
Williams personality was infectious. That is for sure. His dancing and whatnot will definitely be missed. As far as on field production, with Dillon I don't think Williams will be missed as much. Dillon likely will be as good if not an upgrade. I liked Williams, but Dillon will de everything that Williams can do. And maybe better. I did like Williams a lot and will be missed. His personality will definitely be missed. But I am looking forward to seeing more from DIllon next year. And I think Dillon and Jones together could be very good.
Razer
March 24, 2021 at 08:58 am
...This year I really think its a year to trade down. This is the year where great players are going to be found later then normal. Because there is so much uncertainty with players coming in this year....
I also believe that this would be a good year to trade down and get more bang for the buck in rounds 2-4. The messed up COVID season and guys who didn't get a full season prior to the COVID season make this a "dark horse" draft. If Gutekunst trades away mid round picks to move up in the first, I'll be drunk before the next pick is in.
Minniman
March 24, 2021 at 12:32 pm
Whilst I tend to agree with you I still have this pang in the back of my mind that with 10 picks already though, if the Packers do trade back, do they have enough scouting surety to grab 12 players in the draft?
I'd be up for a trade back into the really early 2nd round + a 3rd (or a next year R1)..... it probably won't happen (too expensive), but if a team was that high on a player or gullible I'd jump it if I was Gute.
Archie
March 24, 2021 at 01:00 pm
This is probably the common thinking around the league this year, meaning the cost of moving up should be less than normal, suggesting a move up may be the wiser choice IF you have a guy you really love that is reachable.
What if Waddle/Smith fell into late teens? Or either of the top 2 RBs, Harris or Etienne, into the early 20s? Or the LB from PSU fell into late teens? Or either of the top 2 CBs fell into the late teens? If we could trade up at a discount for one of these blue chips why stay at 29 and pick from the leftovers and those with much more uncertainty?
Smartest strategy may be trade up if above conditions met. Else trade down (if you can get normal full price of trade). In other words, avoid picking at 29 if you can.
jannesbjornson
March 24, 2021 at 05:45 pm
If you want a CB, you have to move Up in round one. I would move up for Zaven Collins and trade P. Smith during the draft. Gutedkunst will probably draft a Center and a RT to protect the franchise.
stockholder
March 24, 2021 at 06:16 pm
I disagree. The only guy you trade up for is Barmore. Collins will go in the 2nd rd.
jannesbjornson
March 24, 2021 at 09:08 pm
Collins is a mid first rounder. He can start right off the bat and make plays. This status quo show will play two down linemen again and probably extend Lowry.
Lphill
March 24, 2021 at 09:04 am
If Asante Samuel jr is there or they have to trade up then do it .
stockholder
March 24, 2021 at 10:30 am
Samuel is falling. He will be there @29. Newsome has jumped over him. IMO. The Packers need to take a DL early or forget it. (Before #62 if Clark is to get help.) I'll take Barmore or trade down this draft. The value is 100- 145. The packers must start to stockpile players for Life after Rodgers. Thats if they still believe in Development.
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 03:59 pm
We don't know if Samuel is falling with GMs, and their opinion is what matters.
stockholder
March 25, 2021 at 07:14 am
Yes we do. He didn't test well. Seems he was average. Nothing stood out.
dobber
March 25, 2021 at 07:25 am
There isn't a single GM out there who has gone on the record to tell you exactly what he thinks of this kid and how he has him graded. Not one. Anything you're hearing from GMs is BS.
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:47 am
Testing isn’t everything. Film counts for a lot. If I recall, Adams was pretty average in his testing. I accept elite testing can get one noticed and dreadful scores can cause one to fall, but average just puts more weight on game play scouted.
dobber
March 25, 2021 at 08:59 am
Agreed: we hear a lot from people that draft day decisions are made mostly on film. Again, it goes back to whether or not you trust what they're feeding you, but just about every year, the board deviates from the "draftnik consensus" pretty quickly. Things are being considered that aren't talked about in public.
Since'61
March 24, 2021 at 09:06 am
I just don't understand why King was re-signed and for $6 million at that! Why???!!! Could not the $6 million have been better spent on another FA CB or on retaining Williams? If we're going to keep the gang together why not keep Jones, Williams and Dillon as our 3 headed RB monster?
As for the draft picks I agree with Al that Gute will double up on a few positions including, CB, WR and DL.
It was great to watch those clips of Williams but confusing to know that we chose to retain King instead of Williams.
Thanks, Since '61
packer132
March 24, 2021 at 12:20 pm
I have no problem letting Williams go, as Jones is the best back. There would not be enough carries for all 3 backs, and Packers will draft a RB in late rounds. King was brought back as those behind him aren't capable to play, and Packers will draft a CB in 1st or 2nd round to develop.
Since'61
March 24, 2021 at 01:01 pm
It would have been a lot easier to take if they brought King back for $2-3 million. But if $6 million or close to it is the cap hit that's too high for me for King. Williams cap hit to the Lions will be $1.5 million in 2021.
$1.5 million for a productive RB is lot better to me that $6 million for a CB who allows long TD passes to go uncontested. Maybe Barry made a case for keeping King and will put him in better situations to succeed.
I believe that King is needed until his replacement is drafted and if the pick can get on the field during his rookie season King will be moved into a rotational role. Ultimately that would make sense and would have made more sense at $2-3 million.
It's looking like letting Boyle and Williams go is a plan by Gute to give his new toys more playing time at their respective positions. Which is fine. The question is how soon does he want to give Love the starting QB job. Once that happens we're done SB wise for a while. Thanks, Since '61
Dragon5
March 24, 2021 at 01:46 pm
I think going unnoticed here may be that Jerry Gray gave Gute a vote of confidence in Kevin King, and another year working with him further irons out flaws. Bottom line, any improvement is moot if King can't stay healthy, and being an injury-prone 7 life path that he is, the injury bug becomes a ball & chain that will not be severed. So the bet is one year, hopefully game (starts) incentivized, or we move on as next year's cap situation is shaping up to be even more dire than the current.
This signing also reeks of a trade back into the 2nd round as well. Gute is well known to overpay to get what he wants. Majority will be looking that way given his tendencies. One of Newsome or Asante Jr will likely be available in the top quarter of 2nd round. Perhaps his phone is ringing off the hook for QB needy teams looking to move up to #29 to get the 5th year option on Mac Jones.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 01:52 pm
Let’s see the contract not speculate on what King was actually given.
As to Williams, I saw three options, neither Jones nor Williams back or either one. Both back was never likely. Dillon is going to get a lot of snaps, as he should on a first contract.
Williams is likely to get more opportunities in Detroit and they can afford him as well. As soon as Jones signed, Williams was gone. I am happy that he seems to have landed in a good situation for him.
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 04:01 pm
Williams landed in a crowded backfield in Detroit, and will have to steal snaps from Swift. It's not ideal.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 06:53 pm
I don’t see many rivals for what he is good at, but you know more about the Lions. I see Swift as the lead back certainly.
dobber
March 24, 2021 at 07:17 pm
"... but you know more about the Lions."
I'm not proud of it...
Fabio
March 24, 2021 at 03:40 pm
As always, I agree with you Since '61 !!
I think 6 ML for King is financial (as well as technical) nonsense
Then I would have preferred to spend 9 ML and take Fuller (however there were also excellent CB signed for 4 ML !!)
Greetings from Italy
Go Pack Go
Fabio
March 24, 2021 at 03:42 pm
Can you tell me something about Henry Black since '61? How do you see it this season? Personally I would see it well in the slot
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 09:18 am
I wanted an inexpensive veteran CB to help take some of the pressure off our rookie CBs. There is an interesting O line mystery; where will Runyon play, Stepaniak was active late in the season, is he ready. Either way a T will be drafted. In my opinion, our D line is missing that nasty NG that can clog the middle and gobble up blockers, luckily two should be available in the 3rd round( Shelvin or McNeil). If we can draft a solid starting CB and NG it could allow us to be a true 3-4 defense with 4 or 5 players on the line of scrimmage. It would be very difficult to block our OLB combos and Clark.
Minniman
March 24, 2021 at 04:20 pm
Regarding your comment about the need for another legitimate NT or DE I couldn't agree more.
Everyone here knows that the Secondary and the DL directly compliment each other.
I think that addressing the interior DL to stop OL getting up-field will pay larger defensive dividends than people give credit.
Sure, CB's need to be drafted (and potentially early - depending on how the draft falls), but at the point in the upper middle rounds when the Packers are on the clock and guys like you mentioned above are available, choosing the D-lineman will be the smart play (IMHO).
Difer
March 24, 2021 at 09:46 am
As long as the roster is good enough to get the Packers into the playoffs (it is), Mark Murphy (to whom Gutekunst answers) will be satisfied. He runs a business, not just a football team.
arthurl
March 24, 2021 at 09:48 am
I feel resigning King was the right call. He didn’t have his best in the championship game, but overall I thought he was solid for the season. He was better the prior year, but for 6M, he is starter talent, so I’m fine with it. I could see them taking a CB early in the draft to groom if King’s play tails off. To be frank, for what they are paying him, the team wasn’t gonna find a FA as talented as King.
From where the Packers will be picking this year’s draft and probably next, chances of finding someone close to an Alexander type aren’t great. They could get lucky, but their track record for drafting CB’s isn’t all that great overall.
If I were guessing their draft I could them going OL, then CB or vice versa.
PeteK
March 24, 2021 at 12:33 pm
Drafting a CB like Jaire makes up for many misses and finding a second starter at 29 is much easier.
Archie
March 24, 2021 at 01:53 pm
From today's USC tryouts via Great Blue North.....
".....the guy who appears to have jumped off the page there is WR Amon-Ra St. Brown. The guy is absolutely sculpted at 5-11.5 and 197 pounds and had really nice 38.5″ vertical, although his 40-time at an unofficial hand-timed 4.51 was a little slower than he was probably hoping for. ..."
I'm still high on the prospects for his brother but the younger St. Brown could make a good R3/R4 pick.
The top 3 WR on the board seem set and the only other R1 WR would seem to be Toney who may last till 29. Purdue's Rondale Moore WR could be a great late R2 pick for the Pack.
Large 2nd tier of OLBs figure to go in R2/R3. Zaven Collins (probably R1) is the one I like that could fall to Pack in R1). He's a Brian Urlacher type. J O-K from ND also would be a great R1 choice at 29 or maybe a small trade-up.
Top 3 CBs on the board seem set to go in top 15 picks and probably would require too much ammo to trade-up for but after that, there's a deep class of CBs to choose from. Maybe we go elsewhere in R1/R2 and take 3 from the middle or end of the draft. This draft is also heavy/deep on quality Safeties.
Gutey likes to draft high value positions in R1 (CB, OLB, QB) suggesting OL or DL could be next. Maybe that means DT Barmore from Bama who had a great pro day yesterday with Gutey in attendance. If he chooses to go OL, Darrisaw or Mayfield may be available at 29. Again, a small trade up for a DL/OL might be necessary. A small trade-down near the end of R1 should be enticing to many teams this year so why not make sure you get the guy you want.
Coldworld
March 24, 2021 at 02:01 pm
Amon Ra is a very impressive college type, far more developed than his brother was, but the question is whether his athleticism will allow him to transfer it to the NFL. He plays in the slot a lot, yet lacks true elite speed and burst.
From a Packers perspective, I think that the added complication may be that he is most likely to be in direct competition with his brother. Neither are true lightning boundary types, quick twitch slot types or big receivers in the Lazard mold. I think the younger one is a true prospect in the Adams mold (if he shares the talent and drive to progress), but I think it might be more complicated in Green Bay than elsewhere.
stockholder
March 25, 2021 at 10:40 am
GBN has been good. But I wouldn't draft any USC player. We need Barmore regardless. The packers must match Tampa Bays signings.
dobber
March 25, 2021 at 11:55 am
Weren't we saying the same kinds of things about SF a year ago>?
BAMABADGER
March 25, 2021 at 08:40 pm
Yes, to Barmore.
t-wrecks
March 24, 2021 at 04:17 pm
Remember when king was the best cornerback we had in years? He is still a good player and I like the extension and draft concept.
stockholder
March 25, 2021 at 07:15 am
To many people here are getting into PFF ratings. It doesn't work if a player is fighting injuries.
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:41 am
If King wasn’t injured he is the youngest old man I know. You could see his lack of speed and short area mobility. A lot here just think he is bad, but what I saw made me ask why are they sending him out there?
It is possible that he has some degenerative issue, but I think that’s improbable. More likely he was hampered by his groin and other ailments that showed up in injury reports.
What bothers me is that we couldn’t find a single candidate to even spell him for a few snaps let alone a game. Since we resigned him I’m fairly confident the team knows he was hobbled. Put this all together and I’ve very little faith in anyone below Sullivan in the depth chart.
If that’s wrong, what the heck was the team doing? Was this Pettine alone? Did Gray or LaFleur have a role too?
stockholder
March 25, 2021 at 10:27 am
Your not wrong on this. But your faith in Sullivan is. Brady went right after Sullivan. He continued attacking Sullivan to draw the defense in. It worked. Sullivan has lost his speed. And Greene was the guy that worked well with Sullivan. I suggest they draft both these positions later.
Packers0808
March 24, 2021 at 04:39 pm
Couldn't hurt to bring back Casey Heyward for a look see and and another round!
wildbill
March 24, 2021 at 05:31 pm
You can never have enough good DBs so I’m fine with bringing King back but just think 6 mil is too much of a raise. King didn’t lose that game by himself as there were several other plays, and play calling, which attributed to the loss. Nobody feels worse than King and we should move forward and be supportive of him next season.
Thegreatreynoldo
March 24, 2021 at 09:49 pm
What does "you can never have enough good DBs" have to do with "I'm fine with bringing King back?
King isn't good. He isn't average.
Gman1976
March 24, 2021 at 05:34 pm
When we saw King getting picked on by Brady in the Super Bowl, I thought he was done in Green Bay. I have since heard that he had a back issue, but the injury has not been confirmed. Either way, I really thought it was time for a new CB.
Coldworld
March 25, 2021 at 07:50 am
It is, perhaps several.