Battle of the Quarterbacks: Aaron Rodgers Vs. Tom Brady

Comparing Rodgers and Brady

When it comes to American Football, it feels like for those outside of the States, the position they all love the most is the Quarterback position and when it comes to the quarterback position there are very few names bigger than Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady. Today we're going to be analyzing the long careers and the rivalry of two of the MVPs of the last two decades in the NFL.

Personally, I feel like the obvious place to start is to compare their honors, though this may unfortunately seem a little bit one sided, starting with Super Bowls. Tom Brady has 7, including 5 Super Bowl MVP awards. Aaron Rodgers has 1 Super Bowl, in which he was the MVP. Next, NFL MVP awards, Brady has 3 with 2 NFL Offensive Player of the Year awards. Rodgers trumps him on that one, with 4 NFL MVP awards, however he has 0 offensive player of the year awards. Between them they have 25 Pro Bowl appearances, 15 for Brady and 10 for Rodgers.

Now some ‘Quarterback Specific Stats’. Firstly, both have won awards for being the NFL Passer Rating Leader, twice for Brady and four times for Rodgers. They have also both been awarded for being the NFL Passing Touchdowns Leader, 5 times for Brady and twice for Rodgers. Rodgers holds a couple of records in the NFL, he has the highest Single season passer rating of 122.5 from the 2011 season, he has the most consecutive passes without an interception at 402 and lowest career interceptions percentage at 1.4%, he also has the lowest interception percentage in a season at 0.3% in the 2018 season.

For Brady however, he has a few more, he has the most career quarterback wins, 251, the most career passing attempts, 12,050. The most career passing completions at 7,753 which is 100 more passes than Rodgers has even attempted. The most career passing touchdowns at 649 and the most career passing yards at 89,214. There are more but let’s not go into it. Aaron Rodgers doesn’t deserve this disrespect. But there’s no denying that Tom Brady is the Goat. At 39 years old however, there is still time for Rodgers to get his hands on some of these records.

We have been lucky to have witnessed some great battles and some not-so-great battles between these two absolute juggernauts of the Football world. The last battle between the two was in September 2022 when the Packers played the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. A game that would prove to be a battle of defenses. Rodgers put up 27 completed passes of his 35 attempts, for 255 yards, two touchdowns, one interception and one sack. The two touchdowns were on the Packers first 2 possessions. While those stats are pretty great it was the defense that helped him claim the 14-12 victory over his rival, Brady.

Over their years they have faced each other 5 times and while Brady does hold the advantage with 3 wins to Rodgers 2. Rodgers taking the W most recently won’t be forgotten by Brady. These men have grown to respect each other massively and while Brady is known as the golden standard for post season football, it’s fair to say that Aaron Rodgers will undoubtedly go down as one of the greatest regular season quarterbacks of all time.

Look, I understand that it’s quite hard to compare these two quarterbacks, of course we love Aaron Rodgers, he has been with the Packers through thick and thin and has led us to a Super Bowl victory in 2010, which was the first since 1996! We owe a lot to Rodgers and he has give us plenty of good times over the years, but there’s a reason that Tom Brady is often seen as the greatest of all time (GOAT), the man has more super bowls than every single team in the NFL, the list goes Tom Brady with 7, then the New England Patriots & the Pittsburgh Steelers tied with 6, followed by the Dallas Cowboys and the San Francisco 49ers with 5. That is just outrageous.

With all that being said, we have the potential for a few more quarterbacks to get their name etched into the history books. One that comes to mind if we follow the Brady's timeline is the New England Patriots QB, Mac Jones. He was drafted in the first round of the 2021 draft. Filling Tom's shoes is a very big responsibility and not one that many would be eager to take. Knowing that the Pats are out of competition for the time being, betting punters can stay ahead for the new season's sports betting promos available in Massachusetts.

While Tom Brady has already sort of retired once, when the day comes that both of these men retire from Football, it’s going to be a sad day for the sport. Both of them have given everything for the game and while it’s true they will be leaving the game a lot differently, they have made so many people happy over the years and we may never see other players reach anywhere near their heights. So I would just like to say, from the bottom of my heart, thank you to both Brady and Rodgers for all the good times and the bad.

 

PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHEESEHEAD NATION WEEKLY NEWSLETTER HERE.

__________________________

4 points
 

Comments (70)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
NickPerry's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:23 am

IMPO there's a few differences between Brady and Rodgers. One, Brady IS the GOAT. The 2016 SB against Atlanta left absolutely zero doubt in my mind. Brady has ALL those Championships but there's two huge differences why he has them.

1.) Brady has pretty much always played on a team friendly contract. I used to hear because Giselle made so much money he was able to play for much less. Umm, okay, if you believe that okay. But IMO Brady understood if he got greedy and wanted the MOST money every year, the Pats wouldn't have been able to have the Defenses they had. Brady taking less allowed the Pats to always keep who they wanted to keep AND sign any FA they wanted.

2.) Playoffs... With the exception of 2010 Rodgers has more less stunk in the Playoffs. Since 2011 he's 7-9 in the playoffs. The GOAT doesn't go 7-9 in the playoffs, mostly games played in his prime, and several at home.

3.) Bill Belichick

3 points
6
3
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 09:10 am

"2.) Playoffs... With the exception of 2010 Rodgers has more less stunk in the Playoffs. Since 2011 he's 7-9 in the playoffs. The GOAT doesn't go 7-9 in the playoffs, mostly games played in his prime, and several at home."

Here are the playoff stats of 4 QB's. The criteria is at least 10 playoff games and at least 1 SB. I have not included wins and losses. As we all know, wins and losses are a team stat they may or may not have been determined by the QB.
We would have to know how all 3 phases (Def, OFF and ST'S) of each team performed, what injuries were involved, turnovers, dropped passes , overthrows, luck, etc. of each playoff game. Historical numbers will at least give us an idea on how a QB performed in the playoffs.

Cats. Player 1 Player 2 Player 3 Player 4

Comp. % 62.5 57.2 60.5 64.7

YDs per gm. 279 202 235 268

TD % 4.6 6.6 4.5 5.8

Int. % 2.1 5.7 2.3 1.7

Avg sack gm. 1.68 2.7 4.5 2.5

QB Rate 89.8 83.0 87.4 100.1

Which QB performed the best in the playoffs?
You can tell I'm bored this morning :)

0 points
1
1
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 09:12 am

Obviously this didn't line up as intended, but you get the idea.

0 points
1
1
barutanseijin's picture

January 29, 2023 at 10:01 am

Now do divisional round games and conference championships.

Rodgers has been especially putrid in conference finals. His lone win should be credited to BJ Raji and the only time he looked OK was against Atlanta in garbage time.

You want to be called the best, you need to be at your best vs the best.

3 points
3
0
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 10:32 am

Nick's post I responded to said playoffs. It didn't designate just Divisional and Conference. Had that been the post I would have.

QB 1 stats
20-36 passes 55.6 %
280 yds
3 TD
3 Int.
1 sack
73.8 QBR

QB 2
33-48 passes 68.8
346 yds
3 TD
1 Int.
5 Sacks
101.6 QBR.

Which QB won the game ?

1 points
1
0
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 12:04 pm

Maine Who the the 4 QBs? These numbers by themselves tell us nothing. I'm assuming that one is Brady and one is Rodgers. Thanks, Since '61

0 points
0
0
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:27 pm

Thank you Since'61. I kept waiting for someone to ask. If I was a betting man, I would have bet it would be you ;)

Yes Brady is Player 1 and Rodgers is Player 4.

Player 2 has 4 SB wins and Player 2 has 2 SB wins, both against Brady.

your on the clock :)

1 points
2
1
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:31 pm

'61 The point of my post was to take the names, and therefore the personalities, out of it, and let the numbers speak for themselves.

1 points
2
1
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:19 pm

Yes I get it.

The other 2 QBs are Eli Manning and Terry Bradshaw.

Thanks, Since '61

2 points
2
0
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:29 pm

Ding Ding Ding!!! Cookie !!

3 points
3
0
egbertsouse's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:39 am

I’m not a stats or metrics guy. I ask myself one question: if my team is behind by a TD in the fourth quarter of a playoff game who do I want as my QB, Brady or Rodgers? Only the most delusional Packer fanboy would say Rodgers.

5 points
8
3
jurp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 10:56 am

"Only the most delusional Packer fanboy would say Rodgers."

Well, one of your downvotes has to be stockholder then.

4 points
4
0
stockholder's picture

January 29, 2023 at 07:36 am

Brady will go down as the greatest QB ever.
He had Better coaching. Was in Stronger divisions. Etc.
His stats; 3 mvps, 7 Rings, 5 SB MVPs, and just about every
category on the All time leader board.
But the biggest stat that stands out!
He was a 6th round draft pick.

1 points
3
2
Johnblood27's picture

January 29, 2023 at 08:22 am

stronger divisions???

The AFC Least has been atrocious throughout the Brady years. He got a bye into the playoffs every year.

Get a clue.

3 points
3
0
stockholder's picture

January 29, 2023 at 09:58 am

So Bill Belichick and Brady took advantage.
Ok if you say so.
You do realize Bart Starr was a 17 rd pick?
And Lombardi was his coach.

0 points
0
0
Johnblood27's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:57 pm

I am pretty certain that there is nothing you can tell me that I wasn't previously aware of when it comes to the Green Bay Packers.

0 points
0
0
pantz_bURp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 08:58 am

It is hard to compare both #12s. Both are talented and have won far more than they have lost.

Sorry, but my write in vote is:

Bryan Bartlett Starr

*yep, I am a homer that colors outside the lines at times.

0 points
3
3
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 12:15 pm

I have nothing against Starr. In fact he has been and remains one of my favorite Packers of all time.

However, you need to realize that Bart played with 11 HOFers on his team. Including himself there were 6 HOFers on offense and 6 on defense. Imagine if Rodgers or Brady or any QB had 11 other HOFers on their team.

Next that same team was coached the bt GOAT of NFL coaches. Lombardi's Packers were one play and 4 points shy of winning 6 NFL championships with 3 in a row twice. Plus his name is on the trophy for NFL excellence by a team in an NFL season.

Most importantly, look at Starr's career before and after Lombardi was the HC in Green Bay. It's just not very impressive. In fact I doubt that Starr becomes an NFL HOFer without Lombardi. Lombardi ever tired to trade Bart twice prior to the 1961 season. Once to Dallas for Meredith and once to Philly for Jurgenson. About 30 minutes before Lombardi called Philly they had just completed the trade exchanging Jurgensen for Snead.

After Lombardi left Green Bay he stated that if he had Jurgensen in Green Bay we (the Packers) would have never lost a game. Thanks, Since '61

1 points
1
0
13TimeChamps's picture

January 29, 2023 at 12:56 pm

Put Starr on Jurgensen's or Unitas' teams, how many championships would those teams have won? Put Jurgensen or Unitas on Lombardi's teams, how many championships would those teams have won?

I know it's slightly off topic from the article, but I've always thought Unitas was the best QB of that era and one of the best all time. It's almost scary to think how good the 60's Packers would have been with #19 as their QB.

0 points
0
0
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:49 pm

After Lombardi left GreenBay he claimed that the Packers would never have lost a game if Jurgensen had been the Packers QB. That just about says it all. Thanks, Since '61

0 points
0
0
pantz_bURp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:00 pm

Thanks for taking the time '61. I always appreciate your opinions and have learned much since reading CHTV's board.

My needle hasn't moved...I stick with my preference.
I get to choose my favorite or respected players, however flawed my thought process may be. And, I wasn't playing fair by picking someone the article never had as an option.

I ain't normal, have many flaws...but, have a heart as big as Seabiscuits! 👍😊👌

1 points
1
0
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:15 pm

The second part of your last sentence is all that matters beautiful mystery. Starr is as fine a choice as anyone could make. I only differ because I think that I have been very fortunate to watch numerous great QBs over the years many of whom never won anything, like Marino.

I don't believe that winning championships is or should be the differentiator in determining GOATS in any sports. But especially in football. It's a team game and a great QB could spend his entire career on less than great teams.
It's not just the QBs who win or lose championships. That is a team achievement. IN fact the Lombardi Packers prove that maybe better than any other championship team. They won with the best OL play in NFL history which made their run game exceptionally strong. Just think of the RBs who were effective during the Lombardi era;
Hornung and Taylor both NFL HOFers, Tom Moore, Elijah Pitts, Jim Grabowski, Donny Anderson, Travis Williams, Chuck Mercein, Ben Wilson. All of them were effective behind Lombardi's OL.

Beyond that Lombardi's defense was never ranked lower than 3rd in points allowed in any season while he was HC. The defense ranked 1st or 2nd in the leagues except for the one season they ranked 3rd in points allowed. Moreimportantly the defense only allowed an average of 9.7 PPG in their 10 playoff games.
The Lombardi Packers were all about the team and not just about Starr who was obviously a great player but they won as a team not because of any one player. Thanks, Since '61

3 points
3
0
pantz_bURp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:42 pm

Thank you '61 for your classy reply. Much appreciated...👍👌

1 points
1
0
barutanseijin's picture

January 29, 2023 at 09:18 am

Brady has done better against tough defenses. Rodgers has usually wilted. It’s one reason why Brady has all those rings and Rodgers has one.

2 points
4
2
Swisch's picture

January 29, 2023 at 10:07 am

There's a lot more to the craft of quarterback than throwing a pretty spiral.
Take, let's say, as an example, um, okay, Bart Starr:
5 championships in 7 seasons from 1961-1967,
3 championships in a row from 1965-1967.
That's the greatest record for championships in the NFL before or since.
(The impressive feat of the 1929-1931 Packers -- featuring the colorful Johnny "Blood" McNally -- came just before there were playoffs).
***
Overall, Starr's record in the playoffs is an amazing 9-1, and that was before wild-card games.
Also, in those days, the Giants, Colts, Browns, Cowboys, and other teams had formidable rosters with talented players, not just the Packers.
Starr, as a leader of men, helped bring out the greatness in his teammates.
***
Lest it be thought that Starr was just a game manager, here are his personal stats in those 10 playoff games:
130 completions in 213 attempts for 1,753 yards,
15 touchdown passes with 3 interceptions.
Starr was the MVP of the first two Super Bowls (plus the regular-season MVP in 1966).
Yes, it's true that Vince Lombardi elevated Starr from obscurity; however, I would argue that the steady and steely Starr helped to lift the mercurial Lombardi to heights he would not have achieved with another quarterback.
(It's interesting that Don Shula never won a championship with Johnny Unitas or Dan Marino, but did so spectacularly with the less heralded Bob Griese. It seems there's something to the thought that championships tend toward quarterbacks who, while excelling at their most important position, are more oriented to a balanced offense that gets their teammates more involved.)
***
Starr is the greatest quarterback of all time.
Trailing him are, in no particular order, are Otto Graham, Joe Montana, and Tom Brady (even without deflating his career due to alleged cheating).
***
That even good Packers fans scoff at this appraisal of Starr as the best ever, and find ways of dismissing his greatness, is sad.
There's a video online that shows Starr passing the football dozens of times, over and over again, and he looks quite good to me -- but, again, the craft of quarterback is so much more than passing.
For a football team to flourish, for a nation to flourish, we need to recognize that talent without character is useless, even harmful. The most talented can do the most good, but also the most bad.
Success in life isn't mostly about talent and technique, but integrity and virtue.
God help us if we downplay the likes of Bart Starr, instead of holding him up as a role model which all of us would do well to emulate.
***
By the way, he's one of ours as Packers fans, and may we be at the forefront of encouraging others not to underestimate him as one of the giants of the National Football League.
May we magnify all he represents for producing a true winner -- which are the best qualities of average Americans like us (if only we continue, even in our human frailty, to pursue them).
Happy Sunday, good people of CHTV.

1 points
5
4
13TimeChamps's picture

January 29, 2023 at 10:44 am

And here I thought this was a Brady vs Rodgers article.

0 points
2
2
pantz_bURp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:47 pm

And here I thought people were able to voice their opinions....without a script to follow.

1 points
2
1
13TimeChamps's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:49 pm

Touche. You are correct.

2 points
2
0
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:09 pm

Swisch - first let's be accurate. Starr's playoff record is 8-1.

Bart only played one play in the 1965 playoff game against the Colts. On the first play of the game Starr threw a 10 yard pass to Bill Anderson and Anderson fumbled when hit and the Colts Don Shinnick recovered the fumble and scored the Colts only TD of the game. Starr suffered bruised ribs on the play when he was blocked hard as Shinnick went on to score. Bart only retured to the game as the holder for FGs and PATS. Yes, starting QBs actually were the holders for many teams back in the day. It saved a roster spot and maintained the possibility of a fake on every FG attempt plus putting the ball in the best hands in case of a bad snap. Bratkowski should be recognized as the winning Packer QB for that game. It's only fair.

Backup QB Zeke Bratkowski took over for Starr and brought the Packers back from a 10-0 deficit in the 2nd half. The game went into overtime when Don Chandler's controversial FG sent the game into sudden death OT. Bratkowski then led the Packers on the winning scoring drive ending in an unquestionably good FG by Chandler to end the game and send the Packers on to the NFL Championship against the Browns.

As for character and being a gentleman and a professional no one can close to Starr IMO. I met him personally twice and I can attest to the type of man he was.

Now let's be fair. He was a great player and a great QB. He deserves to be in the HOF. He was a brilliant play caller and he was exceptional on 3rd downs and in the games' biggest moments. I would use the word icon of the game rather giant because IMO he is an immortal player in NFL history. Having said that and I Take nothing away from him but he played with 11 other HOFers and I know that you won't agree but that makes a difference, a huge difference. During the Lombardi era Starr missed 19 games due to injuries. Lombardi's Packers went 13-6 during those 19 games including the aforementioned 1965 playoff game. That is a .684 winning percentage which leaves us to ask how much of the Packers greatness was Starr and how much was the other 11 HOFers. Particularly the defense which only allowed 9.7 PPG in their 10 playoff games.

To be fair to the likes of Rodgers, Brady, Favre, Montana, Marino, Unitas, P. Manning, and a few others, put any one of them on the field with 11 other HOFers and they probably win as least as many and maybe more championships as Starr.

Again to be fair we should account for the fact that Bart played in the pre FA/Salary cap era. There is no way that the Lombardi Packers stay toegether after their second championship in this era. Today SB teams get picked apart after one SB win in FA. Players use it as a reason to move to another team for more $$$ and teams can't wait to sign them. The same would have happened to the Lombardi Packers including Starr if they played in an FA/salary cap era. No team could afford to sign them all and keep the team together. If they were honest any of those players would have jumped to the highest bidder if they could not come to terms with the Packers. Why shouldn't they? Many of the players in that era were dirt poor.

Next take an honest and fair look at Starr's career before and after the Lombardi era in Green Bay. It's just not very impressive. Also consider that Bart was not as physically talented as QBs like Favre, Brady, Rodgers and many others who have followed. That's not a knock that's just being honest. He didn't have the arm that Favre, Rodgers, Brady. or Marino and many others have. Not a knock just a fact. He was not very mobile, like a Rodgers or even Favre and especially not like Tarkenton even for the 60s. Not a knock it just wasn't part of his game and in his era it didn't need to be. But today because of Rodgers deadly accurate ability to throw on the run it's becoming a requirement for most NFL QBs. Like him or hate him, Rodgers has changed the QB position possibly for all time in that respect. Similar to how Unitas changed the QB position back in the 50s and 60s.

Starr as a role model for younger people absolutley, Starr as a great player during the Lombardi years, of course. NFL HOFer for sure. An icon rather than a giant of the NFL for me because he is an immortal player IMO in NFL history. But GOAT is a bridge too far for me and it's not fair or objective in terms of the contributions to the game other great QBs like Montana, or Marino, or Favre, Rodgers, Brady and numerous others have made to the game during their careers.

Finally character today means something very different today than it did back Starr's time. Today's young people have their own heroes as they should and in many cases those heroes include many people who would repel Bart and even you and I. But the fact is that the young people can relate to them. The meaning of character has changed over the decades. Not necessarily for better or for worse they are just different today just as our concept of character was different than our parents and our grandparents. Just as my children are different from my wife and I. It's not right or wrong it's just different. My grand children will have their own heroes as well. Actually our oldest grandchild already does. But that's reality. I talk to him about the old Packers and he's gone, off to play. However it does work effectively to get him to fall asleep next to me or on my lap. Don't downplay Starr but don't force him upon the young folks either because for the most part they can't relate. Their heroes are on their phones and tablets.

As for the USA we'll be fine. I see what my children have become in their personal and professional lives and I see some of their friends and colleagues and it comforts me to know that as long as we have people like them the US is in good, strong hands. I see our veterans in my volunteer work and I would have been just as proud to have served with them as I am to have served with my brothers in the Nam.
Swisch, Stay positive and Stay well. Thanks, Since '61

0 points
0
0
13TimeChamps's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:27 pm

Also, winning a Super Bowl in today's era is much more difficult than winning an NFL championship in the 60's was. Today's teams have to win at least 2 and often 3 playoff games before even reaching the Super Bowl. Back in the 60's, the winner of the Western conference played the winner of the Eastern conference for the championship.

Having to win multiple playoff games as opposed to just one to be declared champions is really an unfair comparison.

1 points
1
0
Johnblood27's picture

January 29, 2023 at 02:05 pm

But...

Take into account the lower number of roster spots and the availability of talented players to populate each and every team (except for the pathetic Steelers!) and winning was no picnic back then, much as it is no picnic today, albeit for different reasons.

Don't cheapen the past with recency bias.

4 points
5
1
Swisch's picture

January 29, 2023 at 05:53 pm

Good stuff, Johnblood, and a thumbs up.
As an addendum, I was surprised to learn recently that even the lowly Steelers went 9-5 in 1962, and 7-4-3 in 1963.
It's also worth noting that while it was easier to keep a roster together in the past, it is now easier to build a roster quickly due to free agency.
***
I agree Starr would not have been a hall-of-famer without Lombardi; but, for perspective, neither would Hornung or Nitschke, probably not Kramer, and perhaps not others.
There's a lot other than talent that goes into making a great player, grit from within a person, gifts from without.
Yes, as I opined above, Lombardi made Starr; however, to a lesser but significant extent, it seems Starr made Lombardi
The coach was moody and mercurial, and his ways may have worn thin after a while without the presence of the steady and steely quarterback. Maybe Lombardi wins the first two championships, but not the last three.
Life works both ways. Everyone has something to give of importance in every relationship. Even the one doing most of the giving may receive quite a lot in return.
My hunch is that Lombardi greatly appreciated Starr, but it's quite possible that even he underestimated just how much Starr meant to him and his team.
A huge part of the greatness of Starr was the humility to quietly allow others to get most of the credit.
***
Character is timeless. The virtues never go out of relevancy.
Yes, it's true, there were times and places in American history in which people didn't have to lock their doors, when most families stayed together, when men were honest and trustworthy, when women weren't nearly as likely to get raped, when little children weren't as likely to get hit by a stray bullet from a gang fight.
It seems there were much less of addictions and overdoses and suicides, of diabetes 2 and hypertension and other afflictions of stress.
I know there were always problems, but it's a matter of degree. It's a matter of people actually trying to do better, rather than saying it doesn't matter if we strive for self-restraint in order to be more self-giving.
God is merciful, and he helps us to do better as long as we confess our sins and begin anew. There is indeed salvation in perseverance.
***
I just read a story today about the commandant of Auschwitz (a concentration camp in Poland) coming back to the Catholic Church after World War II. His name is Rudolf Hoss.
As perspective, St. Maximilian Kolbe died at Auschwitz. As I understand it, the Nazis killed one out of every three priests in Poland, many at Auschwitz.
Yet, the commandant at Auschwitz was welcomed back by the Catholic Church, not as an unrepentant Nazi, but as one on his knees in sorrow and weeping.
A related true story is portrayed in the movie, "The Scarlett and the Black," set in Rome in World War II, in which a German gestapo (Christopher Plummer) is fiercely determined to kill a Catholic priest (Gregory Peck) who is cleverly helping people to escape Nazi capture. Yet, after the war, the same priest is the only visitor to the same gestapo now imprisoned for life, and eventually baptizes him into the Catholic Church.
While I'm rambling a la Grampa Simpson, I'm now reading a book about a Brother Matthias who was a father-figure to Babe Ruth as an out-of-control child in a Baltimore reformatory. Ruth would later stray mightily from virtue, as I understand it, but would fortunately come back to Catholicism before he died of cancer in 1948, extolling the religious brother who had taught him about both baseball and character. As Ruth's widow would write, everyone loved Babe Ruth when he was 23; only Brother Matthias loved him when he was 13.
The words of light and love and life never pass away.
We try; we more or less fail; we try all the harder; we more or less fail; we keep trying all the harder; and so on -- until, with our last breath, we ask God to embrace us.
(To the best of my ability, I did something similar last summer when, after an emergency helicopter transport, my surgeon told me I had a 25 percent chance of dying during an operation to repair an aortic dissection, a tear in the blood vessel just above my heart. As an update, I'm doing mostly well these days, with genuine gratitude for the words of kindness and prayers given to me by many good people here at CHTV after I revealed my experience about a month later.)
In conclusion, America hasn't been great by accident, but by extraordinary effort. Even if the style changes in our society, we better hope that the substance does not -- or we are all doomed to the misery of decline that is mainly due to rotting from within.

0 points
3
3
Johnblood27's picture

January 30, 2023 at 08:49 am

windy, but worthy...

but, thats our Swisch! I've grown used to you my friend.

2 points
2
0
Swisch's picture

January 29, 2023 at 02:49 pm

Since '61,
Please consider it a sign of respect that I've taken your words over the years to heart, and many of them are reflected in my comment above.
I truly admire you as a soldier for the American way, for running a successful business, and for raising a good family, none of which I've done.
I've been more of a drifter, a ne'er-do-well, a misfit, and an outsider -- without exaggeration -- although, to soften the sting, I also like to consider myself a free thinker, a survivor, and an artist.
In any case, I'm glad to learn from people like you who have accomplished much, and have endeavored to do so with integrity and generosity.
Please keep all of this in mind in any of my replies to you, in agreement and disagreement.
***
About Bart Starr:
(1) While it's worthwhile to wonder about how well Starr would fare in the NFL of today, please also consider how Rodgers and Brady would fare in the NFL of bygone eras -- when the passing game wasn't as facilitated by the rules and as sophisticated because of the accumulated advances in coaching.
Also, how long would modern quarterbacks have lasted under the largely unmitigated assaults of ferocity from the likes of Deacon Jones, Alex Karras, and Sam Huff?
(2) Due to that brutality, it seems both Starr and Johnny Unitas were crippled and curtailed versions of themselves in the last seasons of their careers in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
Out of regard for you Since '61, I looked up their records beginning in 1968, the season after Lombardi stopped coaching the Packers, and they were both solid, if unspectacular, seemingly impressive for that point in their careers.
(3) Although the Colts won two straight illustrious championships to end the 1950s, they won none in the 1960s, despite being a heavy favorite in the 1964 Championship Game against the Browns, and the 1968/1969 Super Bowl against the Jets.
My impression is that those Colts teams were loaded with star players, even hall-of-famers, but they were like the recent Packers teams in always finding a way to fall short.
(4) In contrast, Starr always found ways to win.
There are maybe 1,000 aspects of the craft of quarterbacking other than arm strength. At times, a top quarterback is called to do the spectacular (as Starr did in the first championship game against the Cowboys in Dallas, throwing for 300-plus yards and four touchdowns), but much more often he is called to do lots and lots of little things that are largely unnoticed and unheralded (as in the epic final drive of precision against the Cowboys in the rematch championship game known as the Ice Bowl).
Starr was faithful in the little things, which led to great accomplishments for himself (e.g., 1966 MVP in the regular season, MVP in the first two Super Bowls), and most of all for the team.
It's primarily about winning, right, or at least getting the most out of a team? Starr is the greatest of all time, it seems quite fair to say.
***
I would agree that there are still lots of very good people in America these days, but add that the country is at a crossroads, a tipping point, due to haughtiness and selfishness -- which could very well lead to our immanent ruin, as in the case of Rome and all other nations in history.
In the spirit of Vince Lombardi -- the message that not only inspired Starr, but exhilarated him -- we must exhort each other as fellow citizens, teammates in life, to pursue perfection, realizing that as frail and faulty human beings we'll fall short, but also knowing that in the process we'll attain toward excellence.
The greatest saint of modern times is a French nun who died at the tender age of 24 in 1897 in obscurity and anonymity -- largely overlooked even by most of the other religious who lived with her in a small convent day-to-day, year after year, and considered her quite ordinary.
The life of St. Therese of Lisieux is the grandeur of the ordinary, the splendor of littleness, the heroism of a humble and hidden life well-lived (an example which has captured the imagination of Mother Teresa, among millions of others).
This is the secret, if you will, to our personal happiness and the revival of America. It's displayed artistically in the character of George Bailey in the classic movie, "It's a Wonderful Life."
We the people, most of us average Americans, must be passionate about little deeds done for love of God and neighbor, and undeterred by our own personal failings so as to keep striving for goodness always.
"I am a very little soul," said Therese, "and I can offer God only very little things."
***
To put it in Lombardian language, we don't do things the right way only once in a while, but always.
Lombardi knew that success on the football field was intimately connected to success in all of life -- even talking about life more so than football with his players, who were transfixed by his words and transformed -- and so it is that his Packers are not only the winningest team in NFL history, but the most legendary, the most glorious.
Under Lombardi and Starr, the Packers were America at its best.

2 points
2
0
pantz_bURp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 04:54 pm

Swisch, I appreciate your Norman Rockwell-style writing (or, more precisely...the images I see). I love football (at any level)...it teaches so many things about operating as a team and in life. Hard work, study, being accountable, etc...

You paint an Americana image with your words and personal stories. Thanks for being real, and unwavering in your ideals.

I appreciate it. 👍👌

1 points
1
0
Swisch's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:13 pm

Thanks, beautiful_mystery, as one prone to being an old crank at age 60, but trying to rise above my impatience and irritability, your words mean quite a lot.

1 points
1
0
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 05:06 pm

No worries Swisch. I think that we agree on most points. We just come at it from different perspectives which is to be expected. Your points about Starr are valid. The fact is that Starr is a big reason for me remaining a long distance Packers fan over the decades. No matter what happens we can always be proud of the Lombardi era Packers including of course Bart Starr. Thanks, Since '61

1 points
1
0
Swisch's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:19 pm

All the best to you, Since '61, and I also like to think we agree on much.
Here's a toast to all of us at CHTV, with good hope for a continuation of real camaraderie in agreement and disagreement, amidst robust but respectful debate.
Even at cyber-distance, it seems a rare dynamic to appreciate, even to treasure.

2 points
2
0
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:48 pm

Well said Swisch.

2 points
2
0
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:45 pm

That was outstanding Since'61. Thank you.

1 points
1
0
Starrbrite's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:36 pm

Swisch—A great summation. I especially like what you said concerning the fact the Packers weren’t the only teams with a number of great players. As you sa, the Colts, Giants, Bears Browns, in the early sixties Detroit, in the late sixties, the Rams—
Starr wasn’t playing in the deplorable afc (least) east as was Brady.

1 points
3
2
jurp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 11:00 am

This whole GOAT thing for any position in football, in the NBA, and, to some extent, MLB is ridiculous. In the first two sports, the game has changed so much through the years that you quite literally cannot compare guys who played the same position. For example, who was the better WR - Don Hutson or Jerry Rice? The guy with better stats over more games, or the guy who created the position of WR, led the league in career TDs for decades after he retired, and also led the league one year in INTERCEPTIONS as a two-way player? Hutson was the GOAT for the Ironman period, for sure, while Rice could be a GOAT for the soft-defense period (as compared to the 60s when DBs could play the WRs much closer).

Same with QBs. Who's better? Luckman (also a punter, IIRC), Sammy Baugh? Tobin Rote (only QB to win titles in both the NFL and AFL, led the league in rushing 4 times. Also had a 108 yd TD pass in the CFL)? Sonny Jurgenson? Starr, Unitas? Bradshaw? Montana? Marino? You get my drift.

Is Brady a better QB than Rodgers? By many metrics, yes, although I'd argue that Rodgers is a better passer with a stronger arm than Brady. But being a good QB is more about leadership than personal stats.

2 points
3
1
Ferrari-Driver's picture

January 29, 2023 at 11:29 am

Rodgers had all the talent in the world and I feel the one aspect of his personality that detracted from his achievements as his propensity to play "hero ball". Nick also made a point that I agreed with and felt it was one of the major factors in Brady's success which was his decision not to equate his pay check with respect that we see individual players emphasize, ie, "they are disrespecting me by not making me the highest paid player at my position". Brady realized that the team needed to pay offensive linemen and other members of the team to win all those Super Bowl Championships. Brady had the talent, the brains, the coaches, and common sense which has made him the GOAT.

0 points
1
1
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 12:25 pm

The biggest difference between Rodgers and Brady is that while Brady has all of the stats to justify his title as GOAT, it's Rodgers who has actually made the biggest change in the QB position since Johnny Unitas. Rodgers is the best and most accurate passer on the run in NFL history. He is the prototype for the Mahomes, Allen, Hurtst type of QBs currently enjoying success in the NFL. Rodgers in his best days was absolutely deadly throwing the ball while he is moving. He remains exceptional but his accuracy has begun to slip.

Brady was always a great pocket passer but he is not very good when he is forced off his spot. Does that make Rodgers better than Brady probably not it just makes him different. Switch the the teams and is likely Rodgers has the SBs and Brady has less.

Better yet put Rodgers on the Lombardi or even the Holmgen Packers and the Lombardi Packers probably never lose a game and the Holmgren Packers probably win another SB or two. But here we are looking at the careers of two of the greats of all time. I will always support Rodgers over Brady because he played for Green Bay and he gave us everything he had while he was here, just like Favre did. In the end, as fans, that's all that we can ask from any player. Thanks, Since '61

3 points
5
2
jurp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 02:56 pm

Put Rodgers on a Lombardi team and two things are different:

1. First, Taylor and Hornung get the ball far fewer times than they did in real life; the Packers' Sweep is rendered obsolete.
2. Second, Lombardi trades Rodgers because he won't follow Lombardi's' orders and refuses to utilize his future HOF running backs.

Lombardi traded Jim Ringo (All-Pro IIRC center) just because he hired an agent; there's no way he'd kow-tow to Rodgers.

I would also argue that the Dallas Cowboys win the Second AFL-NFL Championship Game.

4 points
4
0
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:56 pm

If Rodgers played for Lombardi, Lombardi would have loved him because he would have immediately recognized Rodgers as a brilliant talent. Secondly, if Lombardi had Rodgers from day one Rodgers would never have the attitude that he has had over the last few seasons. Remember Rodgers wasn't a problem during the early years of his career.

By his 3rd and 4th season Lombardi would have molded Rodgers into a completely different person and player than we see today. I agree that Lombardi would not [put up with the Rodgers of today but :Lombardi would have never let it get that far if he had Rodgers beginning as a rookie.

Thanks, Since '61

0 points
2
2
barutanseijin's picture

January 29, 2023 at 04:48 pm

Rodgers audibles out of the Ice Bowl QB sneak & throws incomplete to well-covered receiver and Packers lose.

0 points
2
2
Since'61's picture

January 29, 2023 at 05:13 pm

jurp I disagree about Dallas getting past the '67 Packers to reach the 2nd SB. The Packers defense only allowed 7 points in that game. Whoever the Packers QB was for the Ice Bowl I'm confident that the Packers would have scored more than 7 points. With the defense holding down the Cowboys the Packers OL would have carried the day as they did at the end of the actual game. Thanks, Since '61

0 points
1
1
barutanseijin's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:18 pm

I’d say it was more Vick who changed the QB position.

0 points
1
1
MainePackFan's picture

January 29, 2023 at 07:10 pm

History will speak of Tom Brady as the Goat. That's how it works. (Special thanks to Pete Carroll for calling the worst play in the history of football)

It may be a rumor Since'61, but I heard Brady had the horseshoe surgically removed from his ass after his last SB win.

2 points
2
0
stockholder's picture

January 29, 2023 at 12:56 pm

I think Terry Bradshaw would argue he was Better.
By the way he did wear #12 and started his Rookie year.
Oh - Joe Namouth wouldn't give up his # 12.
If he didn't think Rodgers could win yet.
So - who wears #12 next for the packers?
And lets throw Joe Montana into this.
Because he wasn't a #1 draft choice.
But still had Bill Walsh.
Looking at these QBS over the years,
Did the Love pick really make sense?
Why select a QB rd 1 with a Rookie Coach?
Gutey wanted a split between Rodgers and MLF.
And you want to hang onto Gutey for 1 reason.
It was because he got picks for Adams.

0 points
2
2
13TimeChamps's picture

January 29, 2023 at 01:42 pm

Joe Walsh?

I always liked him more with the James Gang and a solo artist before he joined the Eagles.

https://www.google.com/search?q=joe+walsh+rocky+mountain+way+live&ei=8Mz...

0 points
2
2
Johnblood27's picture

January 29, 2023 at 02:10 pm

...and...

Joe Walsh ran for President... of the United States!

He can't complain, but sometimes he still does...

3 points
3
0
stockholder's picture

January 29, 2023 at 02:15 pm

Bill - Thank You. Typo

2 points
2
0
jurp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:02 pm

Ah, I was afraid that we wouldn't have a bonkers post today; I shouldn't have worried. A good 9 on the Bonkers Scale with this one - it begins marginally on-topic before meandering into irrelevancy and dismally dying into a what-the-fuck diatribe against Love and Gutekunst.

Wait - I've changed my mind. This is just so mind-boggling off-track that the Bonkers Scale has added another level - it's an ELEVEN.

-1 points
1
2
stockholder's picture

January 29, 2023 at 05:23 pm

No just follow Gutey's drafts.
Love was drafted in 2020.
After MLF and Rodgers were tight.
Rodgers does have the prerogative
to change his mind.
Regardless; MLF is in the hot seat.
And everyone will point to Barry.
But MLF will be fired. Regardless.
The packers will never win a SB w/Gute.
Also dan Morino retired w/Miami.
How will it look a 2nd MVP QB can't retire w/packers?

2 points
2
0
PackyCheese500's picture

January 30, 2023 at 12:06 am

I would be surprised if the Packers don't retire #12.

0 points
0
0
Qoojo's picture

January 29, 2023 at 02:21 pm

Brady played with much better defenses and special teams. Brady consistently delivered when needed. Pats OLine gave him a lot of time. As someone else mentioned, took less money to help get better defense and OLine. Brady is a better pocket passer.

AR had better physical talent but is a bit of mental case. Handled blitz pressure much better. Incredible INT stat. The last few years, AR lost his mobility and I feel it dropped his level of play significantly.

This is a team game and AR would have had more Superbowl appearances and possibly wins, if he had the defenses Brady had. Generally speaking, GB defenses have been absolute shit since White left, except for a couple of years.

4 points
5
1
jurp's picture

January 29, 2023 at 03:11 pm

You're assuming that Rodgers' demonstrated inability to come through in the big games wouldn't have torpedoed him. For reference, see the TB NFCCG, where we had what, three picks? that the offense turned into three three-and-outs. My memory could be faulty with the details, but I remember Rodgers did nothing with those turnovers.

TB (and Brady, damn him) won a Super Bowl thanks to the Packers OFFENSIVE offense in that game.

2 points
3
1
barutanseijin's picture

January 29, 2023 at 05:03 pm

Same thing in the Seattle game. The Packers defense intercepted Wilson 4 times and Rodgers couldn’t get the ball in the end zone. It wasn’t Bostick who threw 2 INTs and the Packer defense wasn’t responsible for that 55.8 passer rating.

0 points
1
1
Qoojo's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:03 pm

2:09 left. Packers up by 5. Fumble by Bostik, then the defense gives up TD and 2-point conversion. Rodgers made last minute comeback to get in range for Crosby FG and tie it after TD. Then defense gives up TD with first drive in OT.

I see it now. If only AR had done more. /sarcasm

1 points
2
1
barutanseijin's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:14 pm

Yeah, Rodgers had that stratospheric 55.8 QB rating. How much more could he have done?

How many interceptions did Bostick throw again?

-1 points
0
1
Qoojo's picture

January 29, 2023 at 06:28 pm

Did you read the two-minute synopsis of the game? That 55.9 QB rating was enough to win the game. To blame that loss on AR is just plain idiotic, like mouth breather drooling stupidity.

2 points
2
0
jannes bjornson's picture

January 30, 2023 at 10:48 am

No doubt, Vinatieri iced a couple of those Big Wins.

0 points
0
0
Starrbrite's picture

January 29, 2023 at 04:50 pm

Brady bugs me—-baaaad—and my blood pressure rises speaking about him.
I have not done so (too lazy), but I would love to see a list of the afc east qbs he faced during the 100 years in that stellar division; essentially a rubber stamp to the playoffs and a home field advantage each year.
How ‘bout the “tuck”rule—can you say “gift”—Ron Woodson does.
Super Bowls—two of the poorest all-time coaching decisions: 1) Failure to run Lynch on the goaline; 2) the Falcon’s taking themselves out of FG position with a sack and giving tje Pats a chance.
Can we say cheating—deflated footballs to gain an advantage. Everyone does it they say, but he was caught and then destroyed his cell phone to obliterate the potential evidence. No big deal—was it cheating—you decide.
Throwing equipment and tantrums on the sidelines and in games. When ARod does it’s called selfish and unsportsmanlike. When Brady does it, it’s called passion and competitiveness.
Is Brady the goat—probably.
I’m with Swisch—Starr was as big as Brady in championship games.
It was Starr who beat Cowboys twice. It was Starr who shredded the Chiefs and Raiders in the first two SB’s. Starr, head to head, beat Unitas time and again.
Brady—-I’m tired of Brady. Is he the goat —probably.
Go Packers!!!

1 points
3
2
Tundraboy's picture

January 29, 2023 at 11:42 pm

Bart is the GOAT

0 points
0
0
Starrbrite's picture

January 30, 2023 at 07:44 am

Yes

-1 points
0
1
A New Era's picture

January 29, 2023 at 11:23 pm

First, I think you have to distinguish between individual talent and postseason accomplishment. Rodgers wins the first hands down, and Brady the latter, also hands down.

Digging deeper, isn't the latter primarily a measure of TEAM not INDIVIDUAL accomplishment?? Marino never won a Super Bowl, yet Dilfer did. There are many other similar stories. IMHO, that pretty much shatters that metric.

Individual stats, on the other hand, provide an accurate measure of the overall productivity and efficiency of a player... and the more data points there are, the more meaningful and reliable they are.

Let's phrase the debate another way. Switch Rodgers with Brady. How successful do you think Rodgers would have been in New England with Belichick and his Patriots teams and conversely, how would Brady have fared with the Packers teams during Rodgers' career? Food for thought.

In an earlier era there was much fawning over *Super* Joe Montana. He was anointed by many as the GOAT, yet I actually thought for a while he was the second best quarterback on the Niners. Steve Young was much more talented.

What do you think a coaching genius like Bill Walsh would have done with a quarterback like Brett Favre, who had a rocket arm that made Montana look like a pop gun and who Holmgren proved was (eventually) capable of being disciplined? Again, food for thought.

4 points
4
0
Tundraboy's picture

January 29, 2023 at 11:38 pm

Excellent post. Very thought provoking. This whole Rodgers Brady thing reminds me of DiMaggio and Williams debates. What if

2 points
2
0
4thand10's picture

January 30, 2023 at 12:20 pm

Not really a comparison in my mind….Brady’s whole career he had cadillac RBs, OLs, DL,s and TEs. Rodgers was afforded none of those luxury’s except maybe 1-4 yrs out of his entire NFL career.

2 points
2
0