To me, paying for a "vet QB" basically says your coach sucks at coaching QBs or you have not spent any effort on getting depth at the position. Neither is the case with the Packers.

"No, Flynn and Brohm will do just fine. If Rodgers goes down early in the season, it will be McCarthy’s job to adjust."

Disagree.

What's your definition of "fine"....?

If Rodgers goes down early in the season, pretend, then how many games do you think Flynn or Brohm will win for GB?

Two? Four? That's fine?

NOT.

Instead, Thompson should decide which of the two are worth keeping as 3rd string and find a veteran that can step-in in the event of emergency. (Brohm and/or Flynn may be able to clear waivers at the final cut and be re-signed to the practice squad, so it's not as if Thompson may have to choose one between the two.)

Granted, options for a veteran QB are not plentiful, but at least bring one in to compete in training camp rather than having no competition.

Aaron, you have officially drank (drunk?) the Kool-Aid.

bomdad - you are a voice of reason...

Aaron, you forgot to list my own blog. Evidently, I also will have me.

Also, I see from the Culpepper article that the Packers also talked to Frerotte last year. Hmmmmm

The reason we need a veteran back-up is not to guard against a season ending injury to Rodgers. If any teams starting QB goes down for the season they are usually hooped.
The thinking should be if Rodgers is out for 1 or 2 games you have a QB to come in and help you for those games instead of just throwing them away. It could be the difference between 8 and 10 wins then hopefully your QB is back for the playoffs and your offence is rolling again. Think Charlie Batch for the Steelers in 2005 (2 start) 2006 (1 starts) and 2007(1 start).
His 2 wins in 2005 (once in Green Bay) was the difference between 11 wins and 9 wins and missing the playoffs. They went on to win the Superbowl that year!

This debate is pointless:
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(1) There is no way the Packers cut a second round pick after only one season.
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(2) There is no way the Packers cut a player that showed as much promise as Matt Flynn.
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(3) There is no way the Packers keep four QBs on the roster.
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The fretters and bedwetters have to learn to cope.

Also InFact: neither Brohm nor Flynn will be eligible for the practice squad. The practice squad is solely for players with less than one year accrued exerience on an NFL roster.

DDD I agree that TT has shown that there is no way that he would cut his second round pick, but that doesn't mean I can't think he should. I liked the pick when it happened, hey if Brohm had come out the year before he may have gone in the top 5. It was tremendous value.
But I think TT sometimes has shown a "Sticking to his guns" attitude that is at times detrimental. For example see punter or Grant. I hope that this isn't an example that comes back to bite us.
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And if we shouldn't debate it here, where should we?

Brohm was not active for all the games, does that count towards accrued experience?
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Greg Jennings will make any QB look good.

I think Grant has to return to his prior form, the offensive line has to block better and the fullback actually has to block

Aaron, was he active for ANY games? I cant remember, but I would guess not.

So tell me a team in the league that isn't in trouble if their starting QB goes down?

And don't say look at the Patriots when they lost Brady as we are about to see how lucky Cassell was.

That's blind faith. They were absolutely terrible last year and all reports indicate they still suck. Teams do well with game manager QBs all the time. It doesn't mean we'de get blown out first game in the playoffs-- or that we would necessarily limp in. What if AR is only out for 1-4 games? That could be the difference between making the playoffs and not.

By the way, I am laughing at Donald's post about keeping someone with as much promise as Flynn. That stint against Tampa was amazing. He convinced everyone that Aaron absolutely had to play through an injury

Rainman: you can attribute it to Thompson "stuborness" but how many second round picks (of any team) get cut after only one season + a preseason?
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I'd be curious to see a list.
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Teams just don't give up on high round picks after only one season. It's not just Thompson, it's everyone.
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BTW, I didn't say people somehow "can't" debate the issue" I said the debate is completely pointless.

Great last comment Aaron, I was thinking the same exact thing. Don't know when these back-ups will "turn the corner" but you never know when things will just click for them.
Hopefully it won't matter and Rodgers plays all 16 games.
But I will say the best thing that can happen if he should get hurt is for that running game to get going and take some pressure off the QB. I recall in the Dallas game 2 years ago, Grant was gashing the 'Boys for decent yardage which allowed Rodgers some extra time to throw. Its a team game, always has been.

I thought Brohm was active for at least one game. In the one where Rodgers went down, Brohm got up and started throwing like he thought he was going to go in. Was he that out of the loop that he didn't know he was the 3rd string QB AND didn't know he was inactive? The first is mildly amusing, the second is downright horrible. If our players don't even know that they are inactive, there are serious coaching lapses. Also, there is no way a 2nd round pick last year goes through waivers to get to the practice squad. Even if he has struggled, every other team that could use a 3rd string QB will still be willing to take a chance on him.
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Either way, the market for veteran backups isn't so great. There is a reason they are veteran backups. There is a reason that nobody else has signed them. If Rodgers goes out, I'd rather throw Flynn in there and get him some experience. Maybe then we could get decent trade value.

3rd string QBs have different rules. He may have been inactive, but he could still go in.

Garcia was the only viable possibility as a back-up & he's almost sure to start in Oakland. You can make a case for Sage but he's almost sure to start in Minn. (eventually)
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I don't know why everyone get's so excited over GB's QB situation. It's better than last year.

DDD I am not trying to make this into a rant about TT. I think overall he has done a good job, but if he has missed managed the roster to the point where he has to either cut a second round pick or do what's best for the team, then yeah I expect him to make that choice.
If he hasn't put the roster in that position then good for him put Brohm on the practise roster and find a backup.
And the fact that there are slim pickings out there just shows he should have been on this months ago.
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Honestly, I think we have a better chance of saving a season with Brohm or Flynn than we would with someone like Frerotte.

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Frerotte is available for a reason, he sucks. Who knows what we have with Brohm or Flynn? What I do know is that Brohm, as someone mentioned above, was once considered a big time pro prospect, so I don't think TT should cut bait with him after one season. At the worst, these guys become system QBs, and I think you have a better chance of winning football games with a system QB than with a Proven Veteran.

"As for Flynn’s showing in Tampa, you’re right - it was less than stellar. Reminded me of a kid who came in against Baltimore a few years ago. Came in against the Patriots as well. Looked terrible in both those games. Wonder whatever happened to him?"

Aaron-- You mean that same person who didn't show any promise until mid-way through his third year in the league? I'm not saying a game manager like Ferotte, who I believed was retired, is going to win games for you, but he's not going to give them away like Flynn and Brohm-- who even look terrible without pads. A scab qb is a scab qb is a scab qb...but a scab qb is going to keep you in more of them than Flynn and Brohm, at least at the current level of their game.

I think at least one of them will turn the corner, but we disagree that either will be capable of doing so this year.

You're missing my point. I'de take a QB with a 70 passer rating over a QB with a 50 passer rating any day. We disagree on how bad Flynn and Brohm are. Based on what I've heard from multiple sources, they still don't know how to drop back or make the most basic of reads. So yes, I would honestly prefer take a scab qb who at least knows how to accomplish those two essiential tasks. I'm hoping they prove me wrong in the preseason.

Experience isn't always what a young QB needs. I would agree with getting either experience depending on two factors. (1) How long AR is out (2) How good our defense is playing. If he's out for the season and our defense is middle ground than yes. If it's one to two games and/or our defense always gives us a legitimate chance to win, then no.

Brad Johnson-Had a tough time last year but I would perfer him.
JT O'Sullivan - Would have been a good one
Damon Huard? Could we have got him? Others were out there.
Probably wouldn't have been able to get Simms or Garcia, The both signed in places that they have a better chance to be a starter.
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Is there a team out there with worse options at back up QB? Based on the reports I've seen I'm not sure.
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Let's hope the Packers extend their record streak of not losing a QB due to injury.

Imagine we're 6-3 With games coming up against San Fran and Detroit. Rodgers gets a 2 game injury, Flynn or Johnson? Brohm or O'Sullivan? Win 1 or 2 we're looking good for the playoffs.
Lose them both and we're in trouble, with the tough games coming up.
I Hope it doesn't happen, but we should be prepared. We should have been prepared last year. It didn't bite us, but it could have.

"McCarthy would coach them up and do the best he could to gameplan to their strengths."
Isn't that already going on? Aren't we already trying to make them the best they can be now? You're right though. McCarthy is really going to turn on his coaching when the 11th hour is upon the offense. That sort of transformation mid-season is not possible. You're talking about throwing away games so you can give a 7th round draft pick some experience.

You don't need to bring up collegiate accomplishments because they're not as correlated as you're presuming to their play in the NFL. If Flynn/Brohm can make the most basic of reads why are they constantly scrambling? Why have they both admitted to struggling with proper dropback techniques? Why does their own coach seem pessimistic about their progress? I am being overly critical or are you being overly defensive of a QB that probably would have went undrafted had we not picked him up? (honestly, probably a little of both)

"that’s because you’re viewing the argument through the prism of a fan wanting to win right now" Yes and if you read my previous post you'de see having a scab QB was contigent upon two conditions related to winning. If our defense is terrible and AR is out for the season, by all means let them play

"Either Flynn or Brohm would get valuable playing time." Again, playing time isn't always what a developing QB needs.

Stick to yours guns, Aaron.
J.P. Losman, O'Sullivan, Ferrotte, Huard, B. Johnson, etc.
The list answers the question "Should GB pursue a vet back-up QB?" The list of available QBs consists of either washed-up or past failures. Hell, bring back TJ Rubley. I'm sure he's still available.
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Funny how these dudes can somehow predict success with the retreaded vets but failure for Brohm & Flynn. I can only ask if they have some 2009 scores as it would sure help my betting line.

I hope if someone gets to say "I told you so" it's you guys. Or better yet the question goes unanswered.
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Hey, What's Testeverde up to these days?

If TT were to sign a backup QB, I would prefer Craig Nall to everyone mentioned in this thread.

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But seriously, go back and read your arguments. These are the EXACT SAME THINGS people said about the Pats when Brady went down. Everyone forgets that Cassel A) Got drafted after not playing a down at USC and B) Was so bad in the preseason last year that he almost got cut (and was most likely going to be cut before the Brady injury, because the Pats had Simms and that dude from Lousiana Tech scheduled to go to NE and work out.)

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So what happened to the Pats? Did their season go down the tubes? Sure, they missed the playoffs, but you could probably blame that more on the defense (the Wildcat game and losing to the Jets in OT at home on Thursday night) than on Cassel. His first few games were rough, but he knew the system and as the game started to slow down for him, his learning curve was steep. The same thing could happen for someone like Brohm, who actually was an accomplished college QB and not a bench warmer like Cassel.

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I'll say it again. If Rodgers goes out for the season, the Packers best chance of making the playoffs would be with either Brohn or Flynn, not some scrub like Frerotte. With guys like Frerotte there is a ceiling of how well they can play. With guys like Rodgers, Cassel, Brohm, and Flynn, they've been in the system and they have a higher ceiling than some readily available scrub.

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You can even look elsewhere in the league. Take a look at Thigpen on KC. Look at home great he played for them down the stretch. It's like Aaron said - the coaches on KC and NE put Thigpen and Cassel in positions to succeed. Both of those offenses went through some tweaks to take advantage of the new starter's skills. McCarthy would do the same thing for Brohm/Flynn.

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Finally, and this is a huge admission coming from someone who thinks the QB position is VERY important: the QB is only ONE of 53. No one has mentioned how talented the Packers' WR corps is. No one has mentioned that we have a pretty solid RB in Grant and some backup RBs who can make plays. No one has mentioned that we have a potentially dangerous secret weapon at TE in Finley. I'll admit, the line is a work in progress, but I believe in the talent and think that once MM settles on a line and gives them time to gel that they will become a solid unit. Add all this up and whoever would end up filling in for AR would be surrounded by a lot of talent... almost as much talent as Cassel had in NE and way more than Thigpen had in KC. I would also add that MM is an innovative playcaller and he would definitely design gameplans to take advantage of either backup QBs strengths.

Aaron, I'm basing that (1) off of what his coaches are saying
(2) sports writers are saying after seeing his production in the off-season (3) his terrible performance during the Tampa game last year. After Rodgers went out for those few drives, it was painfully obvious Rodgers couldn't get hurt, so much that he had to play through an injured shoulder. It doesn't sound like either have improved much. So, yes, I do think we would be throwing games.

And are you honestly comparing what Rodgers does with the ball when he scrambles to what Flynn does? If you don't see the flaw in that logic then there's no need to keep arguing.

@ Keith

Great post. I was 99% convinced. Now I'm at 100%.

Your most key point, IMO, is the talent level surrounding either Flynn or Brohm if AR went down for any sustained period of time. The onus is not always on the QB to win every game. Historically there are many examples of the surrounding players carrying the QB. Anyone remember Zeke Bratkowski ?

I love how you’re inditing the guy on two series under the worst possible conditions.

~Worst possible conditions? Now who's hyperbolic? It was evident to everyone, including the organization that Rodgers couldn't afford to stay out after that. Seifert, who attended over a week's worth of practice, teed off on both of them-- but he spent more time on Flynn.

“Well, certainly they’re better than they’ve been” Talk about manufacturing news in July.
~That came from a puff piece directly off the packer's website. what are you talking about?

Keith and you are definitely right that both have a higher ceiling than any scab QB. But will they be better than a scab this year? Agree to disagree.

Keith, you should also note that Cassel didn't carry a staters load until his fourth year. His stints in games before that were pretty terrible as well. I'm going to say Thigpen doesn't apply because he had bad to mediocre performances down the stretch with a couple anomalies mid-season and the cheifs were so terrible all around that I don't find that model applicable.

It may be good to give each a little more time to develop before putting multiple games on their shoulders. Confidence is a terrible thing for a QB to loose, especially when they're just developing. Hopefully we never get there. And if we do, we bring in a scab if these two don't get it done. Nall may be available mid-season if anything were to happen. Haha, did you know he has a 123 passer rating?

If I have come across as being against Flynn or Brohm then I have misstated my case. I hope they become the best second and third string QBS in the league and force Rodgers to be a perennial allstar just to keep his job, ala Steve Young to Joe Montana.
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I just think its unwise to count on it.
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The Cassel thing was the exception not the rule. and I would say that that having more experience is usually more important then having less.

I think the fact that we have a skilled recieving corp adds to the arguement to get a experienced backup rather than a rookie, so if the number 2 does go in we don't have to dummy down the playbook quite as far.
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Let those guys have their 3or 4 years to mature and learn before they have to be counted on to play meaningful minutes. Like Cassel had. Remeber Cassel was behind Flutie and Testaverde in New England for a couple of years. Its better for the team and their development.
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Flutie is available. He can also do a great drop kick.

I'll also add that being 3rd string does neither QB any good. There are only a limited number of snaps to go around during the week, and the third string QB doesn't get much time running the offense.

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Asshalo, I don't see how Thigpen doesn't count. He was more than serviceable for an awful team. Imagine if he was surrounded by the talent on the Pack. And what kind of performances would you expect from scab QBs anyway? Would you say bad to mediocre? Exactly.

Asshalo: you don't think its pretty tough conditions to come into a game where Aaron Rodgers just threw three picks and was knocked out of the game?! I think you're being a bit of a Jan Brady to base your entire opinion of Flynn on that one game.
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If you don't see the potential in Flynn, I don't know what to tell. I can tell you that he had a QB rating of over 100 in his rookie preseason. I can tell you that he played a hell of a game against Tennessee to close out preseaon last season and ran the two-minute drill like a seasoned vet. But you're right we should base everything on Flynn coming into a game against a defense that made Aaron Rodgers look like *he* was a rookie. That is totally an accurate representation of Flynn's potential, and I am not being sarcastic (or am I?)
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Quoth Jan Brady: "Marsha! Marsha! Marsha!"

Wanting an experienced backup does not mean you doubt the potential or the ceiling on the 2nd year QBs we have on the team. It means we wonder why so much is being placed on these unproven players when history seems to show that it takes 3 years for a QB to understand the NFL game.
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Yes I know there are exceptions, but from all reports these 2 have not shown to be those exceptions.

If you go back and look at Thigpen's stat's, they're kinda terrible. But Thigpen he gets a little bit done while not giving up many turnovers-- which is what I expect of a scab QB,except a little better. " Imagine if he was surrounded by the talent on the Pack." That's exactly it, you'de have to imagine. And if he would do better in green bay (maybe he'd throw more picks too), that doesn't mean it would apply to Flynn and Brohm. I'm not writing off these guys' careers. I'm just saying, don't throw them too the wolves before you're sure they can fight.

Donald, " I think you’re being a bit of a Jan Brady to base your entire opinion of Flynn on that one game."
~And I think you're being a bit of a Chris Cocker when it comes to Flynn and Brohm. If you go back to the tampa game, we were winning and their defense was playing good not great. And Rodgers wasn't a rookie last year but that was his 4th game starting.

It's never an easy situation when your starter get's knocked out. I was merely saying, it wasn't the worst possible conditions, which I still believe. I see them both a WIP with potential, but I don't see Flynn being anything more than a long-term back-up and maybe potential starter for 1-3 seasons. but he's not there yet. There's a reason why he got drafted in the seventh round. If we tried to trade Flynn right now do you think we'de get anything? Probably not, because a team would could pick-up a scab with more short-term production just as easily.

I’m not writing off these guys’ careers. I’m just saying THAT TED THOMPSON SHOULD CUT THEM.
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Fixed.

It sounds like we could move one of them to the practice roster without having to cut anyone, but if its a choice between keeping 2 second year QBs on the roster or having an acceptable backup, then TT has dropped the ball on this and he has to make that decision.
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One or both of them may even go on to battle for a starting position on some team, but we can not sacrifice being prepared this year for something that may happen in the future.
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Besides at present we seem to have our QB of the future as our #1.

The arguement to keep them both just because others drafted in late rounds have gone on to be allstars doesn't hold water. Players at all positions who go undrafted also go on to be allstars, often after being cut from another team. These instances are not the norm.
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They are fell good stories nothing else. The cap and roster rules make tough decisions nessesary. I understand that this may be one of those times but I feel it has to be done.

Aaron- I agree the round chosen is often as much about the school played at or the performance in the 40 as it is in football ability. I would like to think after a couple of years of seeing players the draft position would have no bearing on the "cuttability" of a player. I realize that isn't always the case though.
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I get the feeling that is playing a factor here. They seem to like Flynn, but can't give up on a second rounder that had high perceived value in Brohm.

Either Brohm or Flynn would be snatched off the PS within 24 hours. All you have to do is identify one team that believes Brohm or Flynn have a better upside than their present 3rd stringer. Putting either on the PS is equvalent to releasing them.
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I'm still waiting for the "we need a vet QB in GB" crowd to identify that vet. It's easy to state what one thinks is a problem. Obviously the viable solution is a little more difficult. Back in February Garcia was a possibility if he could be content as a back-up to AR. By signing with Oakland he has clearly indicated he still wants to be a starter.
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Flynn & Brohm are better than any other options regardless of the eventual results. I'm still baffled how anyone can draw such solid conclusions about two QBs entering only their 2nd TC.

Aaron, "Probably the same reason Hasselbeck and Brady were drafted in the 6th." Right, but we were able to get something from hasselbeck and I believe it was better than a 6th rounder with him never making a start. To paraphrase a wise man, you're brining up exceptions to the rule and not the rule itself. Right now, those two aren't even in the same ball park. Hopefully someday, just not now.

"It sounds like we could move one of them to the practice roster without having to cut anyone"

I'm pretty sure neither are eligible but I forget exactly why. Some help I am.

Donald, as for which Scab QB? Take your pick. Someone brought up Nall earlier. How about O'Sullivan, Losman when they were available. No sure who else is available now, but don't really care. Point is they would run the offense better this year and you wouldn't have to sign them to a long-term deal

I was mostly being sarcastic about Nall. Not sure if you have the Dish, but I have had Sunday Ticket for years now and let me tell you, I would rather stick with our guys than see Losman or O'Sullivan in Green and Gold. Those guys suck.

Griese just got released