Extra Cheese: Kizer a cautionary tale when it comes to Gutekunst

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Comments (63)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
albert999's picture

May 05, 2020 at 07:53 pm

Evan Silva Bleacher report
Was speculation during the draft that #Colts wanted Jordan Love, which forced #Packers to trade up.@AdamSchefter addressed that rumor on @MySportsUpdate podcast:

“I was told throughout that day that the #Colts under no circumstances would be trading back into the 1st round.”

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murf7777's picture

May 05, 2020 at 08:30 pm

Believe half of what you read.

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Oppy's picture

May 05, 2020 at 08:44 pm

...and ALL of what you smell.

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dobber's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:05 am

To quote "Farts after Wins" and Bearmeat...

<poot>

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HankScorpio's picture

May 06, 2020 at 04:34 pm

We know that picks #23, #25 and #26 all moved at a discount price. The team going down took less than they gave up on the draft charts. So in a buyer's market, nobody but Gute was showing Love any love. All they had to do was offer fair value on the trade chart to any of 3 teams. Nobody did.

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Coldworld's picture

May 05, 2020 at 11:12 pm

Well I guess FOs are not known for saying one thing and then doing the other on draft day. Or telling different people differently things. Could it be they might not want others to know their intentions?

Let it go. Let the other teams rumored to be looking go. They aren’t going to tell you if they were, or Silva either.

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dobber's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:06 am

Yep. Just about every GM will say they got their man with just about every pick. The draft fell about like they'd planned and hoped.

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HankScorpio's picture

May 06, 2020 at 04:58 pm

"Let the other teams rumored to be looking go."

With no Pro Day circuit and the NFL following social isolation protocols along with the rest of the country, where would those rumors get out? It seems far more likely that those "rumors" are fabricated to justify a trade up when by all appearances, it was not necessary to spend the extra draft capital

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Coldworld's picture

May 06, 2020 at 05:19 pm

Conspiracy theories that require extra levels of complexity are always dubious. In this case, virtual doesn’t mean quieter. Disinformation may be active or passive. Let it go ... we will never know

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HankScorpio's picture

May 06, 2020 at 06:02 pm

Got anything new to add? Or did you really mean to repeat "let it go" hoping nobody would pick up on the irony?

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Coldworld's picture

May 07, 2020 at 08:31 am

Ha ha. There really is nothing to add to that canard except the suggestion that you do.

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Tarynfor12's picture

May 05, 2020 at 08:17 pm

I said a few times recently in my opinions in articles here at CHTV, that the Grading/Scouting of players in the FO is at the least, very suspect. I think they are more easily duped into believing rumors and I think that's what happened this draft in regards to Love.

PS.
I'll remember the Whitehurst and Wrights when we get a QB that makes that a must. Let's focus on the now and what they aren't doing with a HOF QB.

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Coldworld's picture

May 05, 2020 at 11:13 pm

Yes, we know. If only they would hire you.

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Tarynfor12's picture

May 05, 2020 at 11:23 pm

Nothing full time, but as a part time Consultant, Thank You.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 08:21 am

wow. smh

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dobber's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:07 am

Laugh a little bit Bear...that was actually funny!

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Tarynfor12's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:09 am

So am I, WOW!

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:20 am

Gute moved up for Savage because Indy was going to move up from 34 into the twenties.

Gute moved up for Love because Indy was going to move up from 34 into the twenties.

Indy loves playing poker with Gute, or Gute has hidden microphones in their war room.

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dobber's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:24 am

As I remember it was the Ravens with Savage.

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Coldworld's picture

May 06, 2020 at 05:20 pm

Dobber, don’t let recollection get in the way of unsubstantiated rumor!

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 06, 2020 at 05:59 pm

Did you really think I didn't check? Because I did. Then I checked to see what pick the Colts originally had. Moving up from 34 to 22 is a big deal. 30 to 21 is a jump but the acquiring team still gets the 5th year option, which seemed more important under the old CBA. Quote from the linked article:

"Rob Demovsky of ESPN said the Indianapolis Colts were looking to draft Savage in the 20s. So it looks like the Packers made the right call on the trade since they had him high on their draft board."

Demovsky is a good source.

https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/Article/Darnell-Savage-Packe...

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Coldworld's picture

May 07, 2020 at 08:33 am

He is, but then he is no more likely to be told the plans than Silva. Rumor upon rumor is the name of the game before during and after.

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dobber's picture

May 07, 2020 at 08:58 am

You are correct, TGR. The Packers traded with Baltimore to get that spot.

To quote Spicoli, "ugh, my skull!"

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Leatherhead's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:46 am

Or both. TGR.

Gutekunst is halfway through his five year deal. On the plus side, he hired a coach who put together a 14 win season. He’s been more aggressive than his predecessor in FA and he’s had more hits than misses.

But he’s traded away several picks moving up in the draft and the players he selected haven’t really shown enough to justify that yet. We’re losing good players to free agency. I don’t like where this is headed, which is a thinner roster that is dependent on free agency.

If Rodgers wins for the next couple of years, and if Love is ready to play, it’s going to be good to be Gute. If not, there’ll be a change. I’m inclined to give the benefit of the doubt after a 14 win season.

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Coldworld's picture

May 06, 2020 at 05:23 pm

Actually, it was pretty clear that Murphy hired LaFleur not Gute. Fair is fair.

It is equally fair to point out that no Gute pick has hit his third year.

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Leatherhead's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:29 am

If it’s so suspect, how do we keep winning? Why aren’t we like Cleveland, or Detroit?

Answer: The people who work at 1265 are good at their jobs. It’s not more complicated than that.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 10:25 am

Agreed in general, Leatherhead.

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scoonie_penn's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:20 am

Casting doubt on the GMs drafting ability. Ironic, hypocritical or both.

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egbertsouse's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:24 am

For years I read a multitude of comments from fanboys telling me to trust Ted, that his inexplicable and erratic personnel moves ( falling in love with Hundley-esque QBs, drafting basketball players, drafting 285 lb.heavy-footed DEs to play in space, trading up to get marginal players that nobody really wanted) were just part of Ted’s master plan. That he was a savant, a genius of a magnitude that we mere mortals could not possibly comprehend. Then the roster went down the crapper.

Now, I’m reading the same comments,”In Gute we trust. He has a master plan. He had to trade up. All contrary evidence is fake news. You are too stupid to comprehend the genius of the great Gute. Love is a HOFer, not Kizer 2.0. Gary too, definitely not Perry 2.0. We had to trade up to get Love, everybody really was out to pick him, not like Spriggs.” Sounds eerily similar to me.

We’ll see.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 08:13 am

This is so true. I got into it last week with another poster on exactly that topic. Being a fan doesn't mean you don't have a brain.

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Tarynfor12's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:19 am

"Being a fan doesn't mean you don't have a brain."

LOL! You're cracking me up. This is exactly how you thought for years.

Have you not been abiding by the mantra of all those who are blind optimist. Either you're not a fan or you're a dumb fan if you disagree in the slightest.

You proved yourself a late comer.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:27 am

(Poot)

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Tarynfor12's picture

May 06, 2020 at 10:24 am

Are you wearing a thong, as thongs help silence poots, making them more a quiet flutter...I can't hear yours. Please try again without the thong up your ass.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 10:27 am

Would you prefer a shart? Because that was really my intent. Can you shart in someone's general direction? lol

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Coldworld's picture

May 07, 2020 at 08:39 am

Don’t shart in your tarrynthong in public, that is all.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 07, 2020 at 08:53 am

hahahahahaha!

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Tabin's picture

May 06, 2020 at 10:36 am

To be fair with Gute
In FA he missed big time with Graham he hit a home run last year with 3 of the 4 guys. This year we do not know yet. It looks to me that the main problem is still unsolve a run stuffer. I don´t think Hester is the solution, lost the hope with M. Adams and maybe Willis could be the guy but is a big ?.

The draft 2018 looks pretty bad other than Alexander right now, maybe EQ could improve the draft class, no hopes for Burks very low football IQ, Jackson is not a CB for the Packers system as discussed in other post by several people. MVS if he plays like the first games last year could be good if he plays like the rest of the season cut the guy. Scott an inconsistent punter. Madison does not look good. Bradley is good I guess, since we never heard anything.
The 2019 draft. The jury still out on Gary we will know more this coming season, Savage looked good, Jenkins looked pretty good and Sternberger with a very limited sample looked promissing. If the 4 are good it will be a A+ draft.
2020 draft Love is a bad pick in terms of salary cap management and win now strategy, maybe the guy is a future HOF. No body knows yet, but he better be for Gute, because I think his career as Packers GM is linked to this pick.
I would say that we will have a pretty good idea about how good or bad Gute is in a couple of years.

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Bear's picture

May 06, 2020 at 03:39 pm

Correlation between Draft Position and "Starter Status"
Using Pro Football Reference as a resource, I looked at all players who were classified as starters at the beginning of the 2014 season to determine what round they were drafted in upon entering the league.  Of the 595 players designated as such, the results reveal the following:

Nearly 30% of all starters were 1st round draft picks when drafted into the league;
-          Roughly 30% were taken in either the 2nd or 3rd round;
-          Roughly 26% were taken in either rounds 4 through 7;
-          Undrafted players (14%) were the 3rd most likely group to comprise 2014’s starters…only behind 1st round (30%) and 2nd round (18%) picks.

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Coldworld's picture

May 06, 2020 at 05:50 pm

Pretty darn obvious LaFleur has a plan. The one he was hired to bring in and the one they have all but spelled out in words of one syllable since the draft.

I’m not sure I like it, but it’s a plan Murphy set in train when he hired LaFleur. I get not agreeing with it, but not being able to identify it I find baffling.

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:28 am

Kizer: great height, good weight, huge arm, good running ability, questionable decision-making and happy feet in the pocket. Gute apparently liked Kizer. Now he likes Love.

Most first round QBs have good to great arms and enough to great size. It is between the ears, mostly.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 08:04 am

I wonder what Kizer's 3 cone time between his ears is? How does that compare to Love's? :D

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dobber's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:04 am

My understanding with Kizer was that he wasn't terribly competitive or motivated, and lacked leadership skills. When arm talent and physical prowess was no longer enough, he wasn't prepared to make the next step.

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jannes bjornson's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:31 pm

Kiser was Mc Carthy's call.

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Slim11's picture

May 06, 2020 at 10:18 am

For Kizer, it was definitely between the ears.

He came out of college at least one, possibly two, years too early. the maturity wasn't there. That was also a problem for Johnny Manziel who also came out too early.

Cleveland had a problem with QBs besides these two.

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taarons420's picture

May 06, 2020 at 08:24 am

They wanted Randall off the team.
It was get something for him or release him.
They took a flier on a QB.

Big deal.

The greater "cautionary tale" was giving Rodgers that giant contract.
He had 2 years left.
Could have franchised him for 2 more.
Instead they're stuck with a 100 year old diva with an erratic arm who won't stand up for his TEAMMATES.

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Leatherhead's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:08 am

We wanted Randall gone. Cleveland had seen enough of Kizer. That’s all this was.

I, too, think the contract extension on Rodgers was unnecessary.

And we should have drafted Lamar Jackson.

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 06, 2020 at 06:28 pm

agreed. GB with the flipping of the picks IIRC got the equivalent of a 5th round pick for Randall, and Kizer. Randall for a 5th: I've seen other talented guy who could actually play go for less.

Not a big deal.

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HankScorpio's picture

May 06, 2020 at 06:21 pm

No doubt in my mind that trading Randall was about getting rid of him for whatever they could get. As Nags said, he was their best CB so they couldn't cut him after he quit that game at halftime vs the Bears. But he was gone in the offseason. Taking another team's early round pick trash was probably the best they could get.

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PatrickGB's picture

May 06, 2020 at 08:47 am

Aaron Rodgers is a thoughtful, intelligent , competitive and caring man. He is also a great football quarterback. Every real interview with him confirms that. He is a rare individual. We are most fortunate to have him. He can not be replicated easily. No matter who we bring in they will be compared to him. Most will. Fall short. It’s cheaper to draft his eventual replacement and backup. Some will play well, most will not. The team needs a good to great backup because he sometimes gets hurt and he is getting older. If they don’t outperform him then they get traded.

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dobber's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:24 am

My hope is that we don't expect Love to replicate him, but rather to make his own way. The same things were said when Favre exited and Rodgers took the stage: is he big enough to fill these shoes with the fans? In Rodgers' case, the answer was yes. Love will have that same pressure if/when the time comes, even if he proves to be a completely different kind of QB. I think your post is on the mark.

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Packerpasty's picture

May 06, 2020 at 09:15 am

bah, you make too much sense, ill still give. a thumbs up though..

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2020 at 10:42 am

If all Love ever becomes is a quality backup, then the pick was an epic fail and Gute should be fired, along with MLF.

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Difer's picture

May 06, 2020 at 12:53 pm

Pro Football Talk had an interesting discussion regarding the difference between the Packers public franchise run by a board of directors and managed by a hired CEO, and other NFL teams run by owners with a vested interest in their team's success (Jones, Kraft, York, Hunt, etc.). The point was made that an owner who had just invested a huge sum on a four year contract extending a HOF QB would most likely never have allowed his/her GM to move up and select a speculative QB talent in the first round (giving up a 4th round pick) with resulting locker room chaos. It seems that the Packers ownership is more interested in hiring off-the-radar front office personnel (LaFleur and Gutekunst) to field a team just good enough to keep Lambeau filled (not hard with the most loyal fans in the league) and a steady revenue stream coming in than actually making a run for the SB. So enjoy the brats, beer and 8-8 seasons for the foreseeable future. Last year's 13-3 record should be good for at least 3 years with the current front office.

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taarons420's picture

May 06, 2020 at 04:04 pm

You can not possibly be suggesting that having a know-nothing owner effecting football decisions in any way is at all a positive.

Good grief.

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Bure9620's picture

May 06, 2020 at 02:23 pm

I read this also, I disagree. Those franchises that entrust their personnel decisions to the GM regardless of structure are those that have the most success. Jerry Jones is Owner, GM, marketer, jury and Judge and the Cowboys have failed to see success because of it. A meddling owner is a disaster waiting to happen. Let your people do their jobs. That's why you hired them, as they understand an aspect of the business you do not.

Not listening to personnel people and scouts resulted in the Packers trading 5 picks for Hadl, not drafting Joe Montana and drafting Tony Mandarich......man I am glad I was a toddler in those dark days.....

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Coldworld's picture

May 06, 2020 at 05:58 pm

Yes, not sure I buy that piece. A savvy owner makes money. Money is predicated as much if not more in future projections as current revenue. If my QB is aging and I as an owner can sign one I can potentially see taking us into the next decade, good business to do so. This is particularly true if I don’t own 100 percent.

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jannes bjornson's picture

May 06, 2020 at 07:25 pm

Dallas took Dalton to back up or replace Zak. They could have bagged Love, but went with Lamb despite signing Cooper to big cash. Does anyone else smell a McCarthy brain meltdown happening like lightening striking twice. I put my money on Love.

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dobber's picture

May 07, 2020 at 09:13 am

"would most likely never have allowed his/her GM to move up and select a speculative QB talent in the first round (giving up a 4th round pick) with resulting locker room chaos."

What locker room chaos? There hasn't been a locker room for 3 and a half months.

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Bure9620's picture

May 06, 2020 at 02:05 pm

I understand the criticism of Gute going after Kizer. I criticized him for cutting Lazard for Darius Sheperd, I threw my phone on the ground. Frankly, Gute was lucky Lazard was not claimed off waivers as I thought he would be or Gute would look like a real buffoon. All GMs DO make mistakes.

As with Kizer, I really liked him coming out of Notre Dame but as a raw prospect that needed to sit. I firmly believe the year in Cleveland just ruined him and he has never recovered. It Ruined his confidence and he developed even worse habits. There is a danger of pushing a player out there whom is not prepared to be. Maybe he would have been a bust anyway, but some players are put into better situations than others.

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Coldworld's picture

May 06, 2020 at 06:10 pm

I think you are right on the confidence and developing bad habits. Doubt and second guessing can undermine the greatest physical gifts and slow processing. He would have been better almost anywhere else. Many QBs over the years have been supposedly ruined that way. For those that remember what Rodgers looked like in year one, it makes one wonder how he would have faired in that situation.

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Thegreatreynoldo's picture

May 06, 2020 at 06:34 pm

The coaching staff will have to decide whether they want Love to sit for all of 2020 even if AR goes down. I, too, think Love might be damaged if forced to play this year, but I don't know and will defer to the coaches should that decision have to be made.

I don't mean that Love can't get his feet wet if the right circumstance arise in 2020. But I don't want the weight of being the starting QB for the Green Bay Packers to fall on his shoulders unless the coaches feel he can handle it. They get to observe him, talk to him and judge his intangibles.

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Coldworld's picture

May 07, 2020 at 08:48 am

Absolutely. If you take a prospect that you believe has “it” but is not ready yet, a conclusion appears to be the consensus on Love, it is not ideal to throw him in straight away. This is the flip side of the Kizer debate above, could be said if Winston and many more over the years.

You give your big investment the care needed to maximize the chances that he will pay the dividend that you hope for when you invested. In this case, that could well mean he is behind Boyle this year.

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dobber's picture

May 07, 2020 at 09:34 am

Ultimately they need to judge what his problems are. Can they be mitigated at this early stage by play-calling and scheme and still give the team a chance to win? We see this all the time: young players or players who don't see a lot of time come in and are chained pretty tightly to play calls and personnel packages for that purpose. We talk about it all the time: give a guy a package of plays he can run and that suit his skills. I would argue that a lot of it is mental makeup...I don't think Hundley or Kizer had it, and it didn't help that MM couldn't routinely adjust his playbook to give Hundley a chance to be successful doing the things he could do well (see the TB game and the Pit game). If Love is a guy who can't mentally handle the trials of the game, he won't succeed whether you give him 3 games on the bench or 3 years.

On the flip side, giving that player a chance to experience the pro game and be successful at it could be every bit as much a boost to a player with an appropriately short memory. It happens in the NFL every year as teams throw young players out to get them game experience late in the season. Fans are calling for it then: why keep playing X? Give so-and-so a shot and let's see what he can do. It happens every year in every sport with minor leagues. They don't worry that pitcher X who has a bright future might have a rough outing or two when they bring him up when rosters expand.

I understand the rationale behind the arguments: let's not screw this kid up by throwing him in too soon...but I'd argue that 'Backup' means that he's not being thrown in the game. And if there's an injury to #12 and this kid has a fragile psyche, you might be harming him by making him inactive or hiding him behind a placeholder like Boyle, who he knows he is better than. This argument is fine in May, but if it's November, ARod gets hurt, and Boyle has just played a game of Deshone Kizer-ball, Love's going to be the most popular guy on the team.

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