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All That Glitters Is No Longer Gold

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All That Glitters Is No Longer Gold

You know that flat feeling you had at the end of the the 40-10 shellacking of the Green Bay Packers by the Detroit Lions on Thanksgiving? It wasn't the end.

It's a new beginning. In fact, it might be a beginning that's a bit overdue.

You can talk about Aaron Rodgers all you want, how he's the glue of the team and has proven himself as being the most valuable player, hands down. In fact, you can make the point that all of the other injuries that Packers suffered were able to be smoothed over with a little Rodgers frosting, until the fateful day he broke his collarbone.

The point is, without Rodgers, this is a team that can't communicate, can't focus, and can't execute. And more strikingly, it can't figure out why.

Folks have been murmuring about these weaknesses for several seasons now, starting as soon as 2011, not even a year removed from hoisting the Lombardi Trophy. Even as Rodgers was defying mortality as he passed his way to an MVP Award, the defense had long since stopped playing to its Super Bowl form.

"Fire Capers" was the occasional tweet or shout-out, easily dismissed by most Packer fans still reveling in the afterglow of winning a Super Bowl.

How can you fire the guy whose defense repeatedly saved this team on the way to a Super Bowl Trophy?

The answer is: you can't. And that is the curse of the Lombardi Trophy. It's an atrophying of your normal limits of patience and puts blinders on your objectivity when it comes to evaluating your talent. And it doesn't just affect fans. It affects coaches and general managers, too.

Heck, if there was anyone driving the "Fire Slocum" bandwagon, it was me, as I had firmly placed the blame for the mishandling of Mason Crosby directly on his shoulders. But I knew he wasn't going to get fired. How do you fire the guy that just coached the Super Bowl-winning special teams unit?

Think about it. There's an aura surrounding those players, a belovedness not only for the guys we cheered hoisting that trophy, but a psychological circling of the wagons on the part of the team, Mike McCarthy, and even Ted Thompson.

Why mess with a winning formula? These were the horses that got you to the promised land once. Why would you mess with that?

We've seen that reluctance to move on. Everyone was surprised when the Packers exercised the $9M option on Jermichael Finley this offseason. While Mason Crosby's resurgence this season is cheer-worthy, we know there are no other NFL kickers in history who would have been given another chance after his historically miserable season.

Even Donald Driver was likely given an extra season on the roster, past his prime before the Packers finally parted ways with him. Hey...if the Packers hadn't won a Super Bowl in 2010 and were posting mediocre records, do you really think Thompson would have kept Driver on the roster, just to take up space on the inactive list each week?

But perhaps nowhere as a whole can you see evidence of gold dust lingering just a little too long than with the Packers' secondary. For too long, they've struggled to live up to the impossible standards they set for themselves in that improbable winning streak of six games at the end of 2010. It seemed that every tight, game-threatening drive by the other team, when the tension was at its peak, TRAMON WILLIAMS would intercept a pass! Or perhaps it would be SAM SHIELDS with the game-saving pick! Or maybe CHARLES WOODSON would make the key stop, right when it mattered most?

But, try saying an ill word about Tramon when it became more and more clear that his shoulder injury had left him as not quite the superhero he once was. The response from loyal Packer fans was quick and fierce: do you NOT REMEMBER what he did for us in 2010??

Or perhaps the slow decline of Charles Woodson, and the denial we had watching player run past the man who once inspired us all. He'll be fine, we said, just move him to safety.

Or the eye-raising contract extension of Morgan Burnett, who wasn't even on the field during the Super Bowl drive due to injury. After signing a $25M, four-year deal in July, he was given the honor of being the "quarterback of the defense" because he missed nary a snap last season.

But, here's the reality that was evidently clear on Thursday.

Tramon Williams is Just A Guy now. Not bad, but not the guy he was. 2010 isn't enough to keep you around forever at $7.5M a year.

Morgan Burnett is NOT a quarterback of the defense. He can't put other players in the right place to make plays when he can't even put himself in position to make plays. The Packers now need to address this position instead of fooling themselves into believing Burnett is the answer.

Brad Jones, AJ Hawk, BJ Raji, and other holdovers from that 2010 simply aren't playing to the level they need to. They can no longer be guaranteed starting spots, much less a spot on the roster if they can't hold their own.

Dom Capers may have run out of time and chances. He's not maximizing the talent he has on the field and isn't holding anyone accountable for their mistakes. If his magic has run out, its time to bring in a new wizard.

What Thanksgiving gave us was the release from those untouchable labels of the Midas Touch of the Lombardi Trophy, both for us as fans, and for anyone within the power structure of the Packers organization. When Ted Thompson first took over as general manager of the Packers in 2005, overpriced veterans who weren't a part of the future were either let go or put on notice that they needed to step it up or prepare to be replaced as soon as they developed someone better to take their spot.

Thompson can return to that mentality, making a list of players that will transition their way into the next incarnation of the Green Bay Packers. Chances are that the next time the Packers truly challenge for a Super Bowl, Aaron Rodgers and Clay Matthews will be surrounded by a mostly different supporting cast than the one that surrounded them in 2010.

But neither Ted, nor we, can hang on to the "glory days" and the players that we cherished forever. How many times have we learned that lesson just within our own franchise?

Ron Wolf said it best when he took over the team in 1992: "You are only here as long as it takes for us to find someone better to replace you." True to his word, by the time the Packers were challenging for the Super Bowl, the only player left over from the Infante Era was LeRoy Butler. No matter how good a player was, this is a "what have you done for me lately" business.

Today's Green Bay Packers are unfocused and unaccountable. There is no going forward without returning to that "do or die" mentality. Those veterans who respond to the challenge will stick around as leaders. Those that fail to meet the challenge will be left to find their way with other teams, regardless of past glory.

It is Thompson's duty as general manager to hold everyone accountable, each player, each coach, and even Mike McCarthy. The team must move forward.

And leave the past, no matter how glorious, behind.

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Fan friendly comments only: off Comments (205) This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.

Point Packer's picture

Fire Capers.

His time with this team is over. Need to hit refresh.

Fire Capers.

jeremy's picture

"What Thanksgiving gave us was the release from those untouchable labels"

Let's hope so. I say bring someone like in Jim Tomsula or Clancy Pendergast to coach a version of the 3-4 that's not from 1993.

California Cheesehead.'s picture

Damn fine piece, CD.

Lou's picture

Disagree. It's a convenient narrative, but it doesn't hold up to detailed scrutiny. TT has been assailed all along for being emotionless, but now he's too sentimental about players from the Super Bowl team? Plus, retaining or firing Capers is MM's decision, not TT's. It also doesn't account for the non-Rodgers injury bug, which has played a larger role than given credit for. There are good points, but overall a pretty shallow piece.

Barutan Seijin's picture

Your counterargument doesn't hold up to scrutiny, either.

The emotionless bit has no bearing on Mr. Angeli's argument. You're putting thoughts in his head and words in his mouth. But if you want to argue the point, i'm game.

How do you explain keeping Crosby, the contracts to Hawk & Burnett, the signing of Seneca Wallace (a TT guy from the Seattle days). On merit?

Jamie's picture

Each of those decisions, and re-negotiations in the case of Crosby and Hawk, can easily be independently argued as reasonably prudent. As is often missed by many in the vocal minority, the real world does not allow for the same hindsight your glasses are looking through after the fact.

Not saying every decision should be considered a no-brainer by any means...only that in each case the decision wasn't so outlandish that one could sincerely create an indefensible argument against the perceived value determined by the team/GM.

cLowNEY42's picture


WKUPackFan's picture

Outstanding comment.

L's picture

Agree w/ WKUPackFan

badaxed's picture


jack in jersey city's picture

very well-written blog post CD. i agree with basically everything that you wrote. i will say that, while we all love tramon williams, most people recognize the fact that he's not the same player that he was before the injury and is on the downside of his career. i believe he has 1 more year left on his contract and think ted will let him go after that.

the problem with hawk and jones is that they just gave jones a 3 year contact worth 11.75 million dollars and hawk just restructured his contract for the next 3 years at 10.6 million dollars. while i'm sure these guys are great people personally, they are very average football players at best. i think lattimore is twice the player that these guys are and plays with way more attitude.

they also just gave morgan burnett a four year contract extension worth 24.75 million dollars. burnett is the perfect example of "just a guy" although i think he will be ok if he plays next to pro bowl calibur safety like nick collins.

the bottom line is that while we all know that these guys are all very average players, i think they're going to be around for the next few years.

jack in jersey city's picture

p.s. i think this defense will be ok if they add an excellent safety, resign sam shields (hayward will be back healthy next year), add one more playmaking linebacker, and add a good defensive lineman since raji and pickett will most likely be gone after this season. as long as we have rodgers, we don't need a top 10 defense- we just need a serviceable defense.

Tom's picture

Finally, Someone who knows what he's talking about. A.J. HAWK was a HORRID WASTE of a draft choice. I'm afraid there are So Called Experts on here, that don't know a Linebacker from the guy who sells Hot Dogs up in the nose bleed section. I said it before, & I'll say it again. "As long as Green Bay has A.J. Hawk in the middle, they'll never stop anyone. He's PATHETIC. STROH go ahead & disagree, you'll only show your ignorance again!!

Nerd's picture

Everyone quit pissing yourselves. This season isn't over.

This team has done this very thing consistently FOR YEARS. It's just that Aaron has hit on enough low percentage passes down the field to pull out a few of more games than we have won this year.

Because of that, you all would say WELL WE WON, SO IT'S OK. Well this is what you get, so enjoy it.

But I caution you. This team has pulled itself together before. No other team can rebound like this team can. Just look at two weeks ago against Minnesota. It's like they only really start TRYING HARD when they're on the verge of elimination.

Yeah, this team shit itself. That's the Mike McCarthy way. It has happened before, and it will happen again. But they are still talented and they could come back next week and look like gang busters.

Not saying they will, but they could. They've done it before. This team is usually down, but it's NEVER out.

RC Packer Fan's picture

No, the season is not over yet... Packers are a game and a half back of the Lions. Does anyone hear think the Lions will run away with it? I sure as hell don't.

If the Packers can use this mini bye as a time to re-energize and refresh, and they start winning some games, they are still in it.

Not saying it will happen. Just saying that the Packers are not out of it.

Cow42's picture

You are f'ed in the head.
Is it fun being delusional?

Stroh's picture

Your the one f'ed in the head AND delusional. Remember you said 6-10 w Rodgers! They would be bout 10-2 w Rodgers right now!

Go away you F'in troll!!!

RC Packer Fan's picture

Facts are facts...

Do you really think the Lions are going to run away with the division? The Bears already lost... The Lions had 2 weeks to get a huge advantage on the Packers, and they didn't.

They are 1 1/2 games ahead of the Packers right now.

As bad as fans want to think the season is over, and it might very well be, but the fact is the Packers are 1 1/2 games back. That is not a lot...

cLowNEY42's picture

Except that the Packers are done winning.
So there's that.

UP-Packer's picture

Hell, everything is at this point is mathematically possible. However, the problem is simple. It's unlikely and also a very, very low probability.

Nerd's picture

That's when this team usually starts showing up.

Point Packer's picture

Its not gonna happen. And you are smoking crack if you think otherwise.

RC Packer Fan's picture

No one is saying it will happen.

I started the whole thing saying that its still a possibility...

So apparently i am delusional to think that that the Packers are only 1 1/2 games back from the Lions and they are going to run away from the division... And I guess I'm smoking crack because I don't believe the Lions will win all their games...

Again, I am not saying they will win. But I'm just reminding everyone that the Packers are only 1 1/2 games back. If Rodgers were to come back, they have a legit shot at the division. Believe it or not, but facts are facts....

Brian's picture

You really want to see this team in the playoffs?

cLowNEY42's picture

I can only handle one complete and total dismantling a season. Pack was gracious enough to take care of this yearly event nice and early this season.

Tarynfor12's picture

It amazes me how many times I read the statement...he would be better if we still had so and so....isn't that something that needs to be detected and understood before 'so and so' is gone.

This is why we don't have the next man up mantra other than just saying it...we over rated players far beyond their ability via the draft and development which has in essence rendered the same outcome of over paying for overrated FA's.

Burning the candle of D&D has hurt us as much as not doing any FA....and I'm against FA but the failure of our D&D may be worse...I have a headache!

Jamie's picture

This post is so utterly clueless, I can't fathom a proper way to respond.

Archie's picture

Excellent article. I think you have hit the bulls-eye as to how we got into this mess. But do you really think TT/MM are the guys to get us out of the mess they have created? I don't. Somebody will turn this around much faster that guys who have occupied those chairs for the last 9 and 8 years respectively. MM is very slow to change unless its a rookie FA or low draft pick e.g., Ross and Franklin. TT operates in a vacuum, oblivious to all criticism, constructive and otherwise. These guys will still keep on doing what they have been doing. AROD is doomed. As are Packer fans. Mark Murphy is too weak to act. We are in deep sh*t trouble and TT/MM don't even know the kingdom is burning. I knew I didn't like the way MM responded to AROD after he made another horrible RZ play call. Here's one guy with probably a 140 IQ (AROD) and the guy he works for has an IQ of about 70. He gets outcoached and outsmarted in every game. He is boring, predictable and unimaginative. This is a mess.

Nerd's picture

You people are hysterical. Get ahold of yourselves!

Archie's picture

No Nerd, it is all fact-based. It just sounds hysterical to you.

Stroh's picture

AR is doomed... Isn't that what you said?! Yeah that's absolutely being hysterical! Step away from the cliff that archie.

gmanB's picture

He's somewhat correct. Don't you guys remember those years from 1998-2005 with Brett Favre? I have a bad feeling that is exactly where this team is headed....A great QB with average talent around him. Hopefully this QB doesn't get pissed and go to Minnesota because of it!

showpan's picture

Exactly.... Arod is doomed.
Just as Favre was when they didn't build an offensive line worthy of a legendary quarterback. More sacks, more interceptions, more 3 and outs, more injuries and more pain pills will be the future of Arod and all who try to play behind our MIA line.
If a player is on IR more than he plays, you don't keep him the trainers, or the coaches who can't adjust.
The ego's here are monumental.

Pack66's picture



But, the TT kool-aid drinkers are too busy sucking the **** of their Lord and Master of cheapness, and will end up like the followers in Jonestown...DEAD.

Why don't the rat ass punks who turned on Favre and said, "He was over-rated, and wasn't that great..really" come out of the woodwork?

Because they are behaving like the rats that they are...

To admit their Over-Lord TT has made a mistake, any mistake, might show a chink in his armor..and if that's the case, could the Evil One (FAVRE) maybe have been RIGHT about him....

They can admit NO transgression in their slavish devotion to the "CHEAP ONE"...

And while we're at it...why is no one attacking Rodgers for only winning ONE SUPER BOWL, like Favre did?


Yeah, I was ALL Favre's fault for only winning one, (hell, he didn't even win it according to the TT accolytes, Reggie White did).

But Rodgers gets a pass...

There is a tremendous STINK coming from the Bay area in Wisconsin...and the TT worshippers can't yet smell it...

Funny...everyone else can though..!!

A Dude's picture

"TT operates in a vacuum, oblivious to all criticism, constructive and otherwise."

So he should be listening to you?

Archie's picture

Well, it would be better if he knew how to do it himself but he's proven that's not the case. TT is a never been, has been, bench player. The job of GM is beyond his mental capacity.

Stroh's picture

He built the Packers from the complete mess of Sherman to being a SB winner and contender! I would say he knows exactly what needs to be done and how to do his job. You on the other hand seem to be going of the deep end!

Brian's picture

You know all of this how? You know TT operates in a vacuum and Mark Murphy is weak! Seriously!

Archie's picture

I know it by their actions and failures to act. I can give you a thousand GM mistakes by MM but you will settle for one.....he refused to give up a R3 pick for the BEAST himself, Marshawn Lynch, several years ago and instead used the pick to draft RB A Green, a total bust. And Lynch's backfield roommate, Aaron Rodgers, vouched for Lynch's character. TT steadfastly offered a R4 pick and nothing more. The rest is history. The Homers either can't see or don't want to see. The media aren't much better. But, if you can't see it for yourself, you will not believe it when you hear it from others. Hence, no point in going further with you ....

Brian's picture

You know this from news reports of part of the actual story...none of us know the exact reason(s) and all of the facts for not offering a higher pick...including you. Hindsight is always 20/20. So if A. Green would have turned out to be Arian Foster your conjecture means nothing. BTW, I don't drink the TT koolaid, just attempting to be an objective fan.

Stroh's picture

While you can have your opinion I would say it completely wrong. I remember the lynch deal very well. Im sure Thompson talked w AR regarding lynch and thanked him for his input. Thompson gathered the facts and assigned a value to Lynch. When the bidding exceeded his assigned value Thompson declined to continue bidding. Thompson won't make a deal to appease a player. If he did his first pick as GM would have been getting Favre more weapons to make another run for Favre and we would be deprived of Rodgers greatness. We would be seeing Rodgers in another uniform. Thompson stuck to his valuation and didn't exceed it. That called being prudent and sticking to your guns!

denniseckersley's picture

I have a custom 34 Capers Jersey.


Cuphound's picture

I wonder if we can get rid of Campen, while we dream. I'd sure love to see a real offensive line for our team.

Beelza's picture

Jay Gruden?

Al Katraz's picture

In today's game the O line is the first thing you build on your team to make sure the QB is protected. Then and only then do you think of defense. Defense is important but its quality O linemen who are getting drafted in the first rounds now and they come at a premium.
The Vikes got Chahill in the first and he made the pro bowl as a rookie. They shored up one spot on the O line for years to come by choosing quality. Got it Ted?

Stroh's picture

Its Kalil and he was drafted no 3 overall! We haven't sniffed a pick that high in a decade! We got Bulaga and Sherrod at OT in the 1st rd. Both have the ability, but apparently you didn't notice... They are/were injured most of the past 2 years!

WKUPackFan's picture

Kalil has also played horribly this year. Love how people consider the Vikings (let that sink in) a model franchise for player acquisition.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Just Vikings fans think that...

A Dude's picture

Spot on.

Brian's picture

Exactly, he also drafted Tretter and Bak this year because he knows it's important to improve at center and the guards aren't getting any younger.

cLowNEY42's picture

There's that Tretter character again.
Love how there's all these people out there actually COUNTING on this complete and total unknown coming off a season ending leg injury.

Yeah - let's bank on that guy.

Brian's picture

Hey ass clowney42, he drafted both of them for THE FUTURE to compete with the existing starters to avoid complacency. Next time, read the whole post and the replies so you get the context in which a post is made! Go buy a glass navel.

Archie's picture

That's Kalihl isn't it?

Anyway, I fully agree with your point. And on defense, it's all about pass defense first. See NYG two recent Super Bowl wins. A great 4 man rush will make four ordinary DBs look mighty good.

Archie's picture

That reminds me, what was the first thing TT did as Packers GM? Blow up the best OL in the NFL. But he's a guru and the greatest. Didn't he cut the greatest blocking FB of the past decade at the same time - Vontae Leach? Butt Teddy is the best. Just as Packer homers. Packer homers love every Pack HC till he's gone. Strange but just the way of it.

Ozpackerfan's picture

I don't agree with much of this article. Going into this season, the Packers looked like they had the deepest roster they've had in years. If the corners getting a lot of playing time were Williams, Shields and Haywood they would be fine there. Instead, they were playing with guys like Bush the last couple games. Capers looked pretty good to the rest of the league before Pickett got hurt but kept playing, Matthews missed a stretch, Lattimore was removed, Perry re-injured his foot, Jolly hurt his groin, Haywood was lost for the season, and the offence couldn't do better than 3 and out most possessions. IMO few people have appreciated how great a loss Randall Cobb has been--it means losing all that quickness in the interior--or how much they miss J Finley in the redzone. I won't even mention the follow-on for special teams as the ranks of starters and backups were depleted.

Sure this last game was embarrassing, but 3 days removed from a full-length overtime and playing on Thanksgiving against a team that was angry, healthy, playing at home, and reasonably rested, it isn't surprising that Matt Flynn wasn't competent, or that backups at centre, left tackle, right tackle, and right guard couldn't protect the QB or open holes for Lacy. So we should fire Campen because his four backups couldn't get the job done on a short week with no contact practices against arguably the best front four in the conference?

Sometimes as much as a whole season is lost as you ride out the realities of life in the NFL. I hope that some young guys like Datone Jones, Worthy, Hyde and Banjo can develop, some backups can be upgraded significantly (e.g. Newhouse and a tight end), they can find and develop a good safety, they can land an impact player on d in the next draft, and that Bulaga and Sherrod can be healthy and play well in the future.

Cow42's picture

". So we should fire Campen because his four backups couldn’t get the job done on a short week with no contact practices against arguably the best front four in the conference?"

No - we should fire him because Rodgers is always at the top of the league in terms of getting sacked.

Stanislaw's picture

And I would say that's partly Rogers fault because he holds the ball and doesn't throw interceptions - it's part of the deal. Could the line play better? Sure - everyone could play better. Is the offensive line horrible? No, is it coached horrible? No (they were top 5 in rushing before everything went to poop. Is it a combination of mediocre talent and mediocre coaching? Maybe but again, there were moments when the line was dominant. To say these vague statements - the coaching is horrible is simple for dummies with no ability to understand the human condition.

Shit, let's fire TT and MM and just get the best GM/HC combination out there and we will every superbowl for the next 15 years . . . solved!

That's the mentality of most Packer fans

(although I think Dom should probably go but don't ask me who should replace him (and I don't think it's totally all his fault - we got some mediocre talent on that D)

Archie's picture

Actually TT's first mistake was hiring MM to be HC instead of Sean Payton.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Yeah, i agree with you mostly.

If the Packers didn't lose Rodgers, they would more then likely be 8-4 to 10-2. Would anyone be talking about them the way they are now? I doubt it.

But losing Rodgers isn't the only thing. Losing, Cobb and Finley have been killers for the offense. They are 2 of the top 4 play makers on offense. They are the top 2 mismatches the Packers have on offense. If we had them playing our backup QB's would probably look better.

If before the season started we said that the Packers would lose Rodgers, Mathews, Cobb, Finley, Hayward, Burnett, Bulaga, Harris, Perry, James Jones, Brad Jones all for multiple games, would we expect anything more then a bad season? That doesn't include being down to 1 RB in a game, down to their 4th and 5th string OLB's in another, losing EDS in a couple of games, ohh and being down to our 4th string QB.

Face it. This whole season can be summed up by the injury's they have had to try and overcome.

Cow42's picture

"Capers looked pretty good to the rest of the league before...."

You mean when his defenses were giving up 500+ yards in the playoffs?

Just trying to clarify.

Longshanks's picture

Excellent OzPackerfan!!


UP-Packer's picture

@ OzPackerfan
You're stating what is obvious at this time. And also making more excuses for the lack of accountability in GB.

Come January there will be 15 free agents who are no longer under contract to GB. --- It's actually going to get worse.

Cuphound's picture

In Campen's case I'd like to start over simply because the line has rarely been good with him as line coach. They were looking okay this year (hey, they opened holes for a running back--totally novel for Campen), but most years, they've kind of sucked. They certainly stank of mediocrity. I think part of it was that they persevered too long in trying to make a ZBS work. Now that they incorporate more angle blocking, they do better. But I've really not been all that impressed with the guy, sorry. I would like a consistently good line. Mike Sherman gave us one--we know this can be done. So yeah, I'd like to try something new. I believe in smashmouth football, and would like to see an O-Line that could protect Rodgers AND open holes. We got that for ten minutes this season. I want it all season long.

I don't believe the high school coach is gifted enough to produce it. Most of his students go on to do better ELSEWHERE. This suggests to me that TT is picking them well. Campen just is too talentless to get the job done.

Jasper10's picture

Ozpackerfan, you have a point about all the players out. Supposedly they are great players, but we will never know because they can't stay healthy. Other than Sherrod, who you can't fault as his injury was a devastating one. The rest including CMIII, seem to have a problem giving the team a full year. This injury problem is not a one year problem, but goes on from day one. One year you maybe say it could be bad luck, but year after year shows that there are other problems. One being the coaching. Either the coaches are not teaching proper technique, or not putting there players in position to make the play. It could also be the players themselves. Maybe they aren't as good as we are told they are, or they are not disciplined enough to put the time in to get better. Either way, until we can get rid of this injury problem, we will never know what kind of players we have, and if it is the coaching staff, maybe we need to look at getting different coaches, as we can't go out and get 53 new players next year.

Cow42's picture

No - I was not a contributor to this article.

An inspiration for it? Possibly.
A contributor? No.

2011... 15-1
2012... 11-5
2013... 7-8-1

Winning 4 less games each season is a bad pattern.

2014... 3-13???????????

madmanJack's picture

you have inspired no one.

Bearmeat's picture

Besides - didn't you say 6-10 repeatedly before they year? If someone would have told you ARod would get hurt, you would have changed your prediction to 2-14!

Cow42's picture

Yes - if he was going to be out for the entire season 2-14 would have been right around my pick.

If I knew he was going to be out for the final 9 games I probably would have gone 3-13 or 4-12.

Bearmeat's picture

You conveniently forget that they were 5-2 when Rodgers went out. They'd have gotten to 10 wins easy - even with the high amount of injuries.

You amaze me Cow.

Cow42's picture

I'm no capologist but here's my 2 cents.

Probably re-sign...

Possibly re-sign (depending on price)...

Restructure (probably can't cut due to multi yrs remaining on contract)...

Let walk...
J. Jones

DL "shelf" becomes bare.
TE "shelf" becomes bare.
Hate letting J.Jones go but Boykins can do what he does (maybe better)
Tolzien is your backup QB (draft another one and keep 3 on the roster)

Draft needs (in order of most pressing)...

DL - I considered S here but due to the fact that we're stuck with Hawk and B.Jones (contracts) getting a DL or 2 that can keep blockers off the ILB's is imperative... This improves the DL and ILB positions

S - This would be #1 need if not for having to let Pickett/Raji/Wilson walk

OLB - Wish I could trust Perry and push this position group below TE... but I just can't yet.

TE - Maybe Bostick can play with a real QB

ILB - Maybe Barrington and Lattimore are ballers

RB - If they decide not to re-sign Starks and they let Kuhn walk then all you have is Lacy/Harris/Franklin... probably need one more bigger back (but you may be able to get away with just those 3).

Lots of needs.
Sure would love a FA safety to be signed. Experience is so important back there. J. Byrd? TJ Ward? (I know - I'm dreaming).

Mrweit27's picture

How much cap are you dealing with in your projections and how much left over after this?

Cow42's picture

I have no idea.
Figure Getting Raji, Pickett, Finley, Kuhn, and J.Jones off the books plus restructuring T. Williams and McMillian should open up some cash.

Morgan Mundane's picture

If they do this (and I agree they should plus a host of other dead wood) it would indicate they made mistakes. They are not going to admit they made mistakes in the front office so things won't change.

Archie's picture

Bingo! Pay the man Shirley.

4thand1's picture

I really like Smith in Minnesota but he's a bust now because he's hurt.

Cow42's picture

Nope - he would have been a bust if he got hurt early in his rookie year.

If he never comes back to be the player he was, then "yes" he will be reclassified as a bust.

RC Packer Fan's picture

For the most part I agree with you.

I don't think they will let both Pickett and Raji get let go, but it wouldn't surprise me. I think they sign Raji.

I think James Jones stays, but if he doesn't they have a pretty good replacement in Boykin.

I agree with the draft needs for the most part. I would rank them a tad different. I would say in order,
S, TE, DL. (But for me is them resigning Raji.)

After that, I say LB, WR, RB possibly pending on Starks and Franklin's injury.

I would really like to see them go after a veteran Safety. It would remove a huge need to find one in the draft. I don't see it happening, but it would be nice.

Stanislaw's picture

I pretty much agree with this list - but I would keep Pickett because at 34, no one is going to sign him to big money and he can stop the run. If you could get him for less than a million for one year, I'd keep him.

jeremy's picture

Packers are on the books for 2 mil in dead money in 2014 if they release Williams. The 5.5 difference would go a long way towards resigning Shields. However, with Drew Rosenhaus as Shields agent I think the Packers have about a 1% chance of resigning him.

Morgan Mundane's picture

I agree with most with one exception: First Priority must be the O line. Beluga will have now missed 1.5 years of playing. No telling what that means but you cannot take chances on him being a number one performer anymore. Think about two of his best youthful years are not pissed away.
Sherrod should have been cut period end of story. Again we kept him because we had to have someone play on the line as a just in case.
For me you go out and get two top O linemen. If Beluga comes back in form, that's gravy.

4thand1's picture

Barr from UCLA. Hands down

fipp's picture

Would be difficult to get him if we don't tank hard, might be a top5 pick. Khalil Mack on the other hand... Love that kid.

MarkinMadison's picture

That's a suicidal formula. The Packers would be 3-13 next year if they followed it. You can't find quality replacements for all of those players in one year. The key here is to not overpay (e.g. Hawk, Burnett) due to overestimating the talent you have.

cLowNEY42's picture

I'd rather rip the bandaid right the hell of than slowly and methodically pull it off thus feeling each individual hair being ripped out of my skin.

Jake's picture

I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said, but I don't see the need at OLB as bad as you seem to. Perry rushing from the right side has been pretty darn effective. Clay has shown he can play anywhere, so switch those two and you should get some good production.

madmanJack's picture

this team was 5-2 and ready to take over the NFC north and not look back. they could have won without Rodgers. they just needed to toughen up on defense and take care of the ball on offense and be fundamentally strong and assignment sure. instead they caved like a bunch of school boys on a first date.

i don't know how or why Rodgers ever got to the point where he became a GOD and without him, the team felt like they had no chance. no player should ever reach godlike status as he has done because now we see the result. the team never believed they could win without him, plain and simple.

sure Favre had the same godlike status, but we never got to see what the team would be like without him because he never missed a game.

football is 99 percent mental and right now this Packer team is mentally challenged. end of story and season.

4thand1's picture

Agreed. This team quit on themselves. Mentally they are fucked. A player like Woodson would have helped in the leadership role. It might have gotten 2 more wins in this losing stretch. That alone would have been worth keeping him over MDJ. But the price was to high money wise.

4thand1's picture

As usual its over reaction to maybe a losing season. There's a reason you don't get a lot of quality players in the draft. The Packers have picked from the bottom end for years it happens with good teams. God forbid if they would have fallen like the Oilers or Falcons, a lot of you would be swinging from the end of a rope. TT has some tough decisions yes, and some guys have to go. I'm content on letting him handle it. This offense would have been unstoppable had it stayed healthy and the Pack could have gone far with middle of the pack defense. Also this defense hasn't had a chance to play together either thanks to the rash of injuries. No team can lose so many quality players and compete, not in the salary cap era. Cow, keep your day job, as usual, like the Bears, "you still suck."

Cow42's picture

You put "Bears" in there... think you meant "Packers".

Keep sticking your head in the sand.

Would this team have made the playoffs without all the injuries? Yup.

Would they have gotten their dicks kicked in in the playoffs again by an actual championship caliber team? Most likely.

Same old story.

4thand1's picture

Nope, a true Packer fan knows, "the Bears still suck". You know this offense would have been recorded breaking if healthy with the ability to run the ball.

Cow42's picture

They suck so bad yet they can still win games with their back up quarterback. What does that say about the Pack?

Yes - The O would have probably been pretty good... they would have had to be with this defense and ST. You forget, though - TT would have still been calling plays, so..........

4thand1's picture

Your so off base, McCown has been with the Bears for a while. the Bears really looked good against the Rams didn't they? Pretty good, pretty good? TT calling plays? have you been drunk since Thursday?

cLowNEY42's picture



good catch.

cLowNEY42's picture

Imagine what the Rams would have done to the Packers?

Ozpackerfan's picture

I've been watching the Chicago-Minnesota game. You could argue that McCown is a better QB for their system than Cutler. It happens, just like Favre was the better player when Majkowski went down. In Green Bay, the backup QBs aren't better than the starter--but then the starter is an MVP talent. So in short, the analogy with Chicago vis a vis injured starting QBs says imo just about nothing.

Bearmeat's picture

Good article CD. The Chicken Little crowd amazes me though.

Aeric's picture

Ozpackerfan you have nailed it.

4thand1's picture

Agreed . Well spoken

howard coleman's picture

"All that glitters" gets my vote for the most insightful of 2013.

Archie's picture

What you said.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Its not just the coaching its also the talent or lack of the players being coached. I agree that Ted T is probably most at fault for his terrible talent evaluation. I do take into consideration his penchant to want to acquire cheap talent in the later rounds.
As they say, you get what you pay for these days.

You cannot win in your division when the competition is out acquiring instant talent via free agency - Reggig Bush, Jaren Allen's, Antoin Winfields, Julius Peppers; and also getting low round first and second round draft picks: Rhodes, Smith, Anseh, Long, Patterson and were getting late rounders like Datone who? Perry - oft injured who?

Football is one team putting their skills and talents against those of their opponents. The Lions have 8 low number one draft picks on that team (4 on the defensive line) and a host to top free agents. Do the packers really think tey can compete against these guys with 5,6,7th rounders and undrafteds playing for us.
The Lions were in first place for a reason. They have a ton of talent. If the Vikes had a QB that would be even scarier with their talent. Ted made a mess of things thinking he can play cheap ball as long as we have that top passing game. Everything centered around one person.

4thand1's picture

So you would be happy with an 0-16 season to get top players? Yeah Right. The Lions were and are one of the worst sports franchises the last 50 years. Go right ahead, jump on there band wagon. Wait till the cap kicks in on them.

Archie's picture

We have two top players: AROD and CMIII. Both were found in the 2nd half of R1.

TT's highest picks were all busts: Hawk; Raji and Harrell.

Makes you fear getting another top pick.

John_P's picture

Excellent write-up CD!!

You are exactly right that changes need to be made on the Packers Roster!

Stanislaw's picture


We beat them the first game we played them this year - everyone can agree that we are lacking most of our best players and they were relatively healthy.

So what's your freaking point?

Plus, you want to be the laughing stock of the league where you haven't won the division in the last 19 years (and thus get all these high draft picks) or do you want to be in the playoffs almost every year with a chance to win it all.

It amazes me the amount of reactionary dolts who can't see past their face about this team. Every team gets smacked a couple of times and if you had the injuries to the type of players we had, the reality is that you can't compete as well.

Stroh's picture

Now I think your over-reacting CDAngeli...

Is there some lack of accountability? Some. But I just don't see this as a broken team. I see it as a team that lost is leader and a roster that lost its rudder more than anything!

Tramon hasn't ever returned to the level of play he had in '10, partly due to his shoulder. Prior to this year the cap hit for releasing him is what kept him on the team. Next year it would be 2M but that's an amount the Packers can probably afford to eat. Was his contract bad when he signed it? NO..

Hawk while always an average LB played his best ball when he took over inside and became the defensive playcaller in the huddle. He also had his best season in '10 so at the time his contract was for being the guy who took on blockers made the defensive calls and being a steady leader. He took a paycut to avoid being release when his play didn't live up to the contract going forward isn't nearly as bad but he will be sticking around due to the structure and dead money of releasing him for another year.

I said from the start that Driver used his dancing title to force the Packers into keeping him another year. I didn't think he should have used it for that purpose but he did, and most of the fans were fine w/ it. I hated that he did that. He knew the Packers didn't want another PR disaster so he forced their hand to get another year.

There will certainly be some tough decisions to make in regards to all the FA the Packers have. Raji is a very good player, not a great one, being asked to play out of position. He belongs at NT and has been forced to play DE. I used to think the Packers would bring Pickett back, but it they do it'll be for a low level contract and in a much smaller role. Raji has to be moved back to NT where he hasn't played since basically '10. Pickett while still a good player will either have a much smaller role and contract.

You want a bad Safety contract look no further than Deshon Gholston! You remember fans screaming for him? He's got a 5 yr, $41M deal for a 29 yrs old and he's provided about as much as Burnett! Now THATS a bad safety contract. Suddenly Burnett doesn't look nearly as bad and he's about 4 yrs younger. Thank God Thompson didn't listen to the fans screaming for that contract isn't it?!

Capers time has come and gone at this point. He has the same M.O. everywhere. Initially he turns the D around and makes it very good, then gradually it goes downhill. That's no longer a coincidence its a clear pattern. Only thing I can think of is that he doesn't hold the players respect and they quite playing for him and aren't held accountable.

Change the Defensive Coordinator, keep the 34 D and move forward. The talent on the team is not the issue its clear that Capers has to go. Bring in another younger strong leadership DC and the D will once again easily be a top 10 D!

Get Rodgers and Cobb back on the field and the offense will be prolific as it has been under McCarthy EVERY year in GB. Finley is the difficult decision on the offense.

No reason to over-react, just make the one big change at DC, move Raji to full time NT, dump Tramon and his contract and re-sign Shields.

Longshanks's picture

CD Angeli overreacting? No way, not him.

I agree with you and especially that OzPackerfan. Excellent counterpoints to this article.


Jameson's picture

How did Driver force the Packers hand? He was still under contract with the Packers. He wasn't forcing the Packers to do anything other than honor his contract.

In his book he was pretty honest about how the Packers were ready to dump him off if he didn't take a huge pay cut. He did because he wanted to stay with the team. He seemed pretty hurt at the treatment he got at the end of his career, but he wanted to remain loyal.

Are you suggesting he should have realized he was done and retired or he should have bowed out of the Packers and played elsewhere?

If he truly wanted to still play and thought he could and was still under contract he didn't really force the Packers into anything. This wasn't a Favre situation where he retired and then suddenly wanted to come back.

Stroh's picture

They would have released him w/ absolutely no repercussions to the salary cap! He did NOTHING his last year in GB, absolutely NOTHING! Boykins would have stepped into a little more expanded role if Driver wasn't there and there would have been no dropoff as Boykin has proven this year.

It would have been another Favre-esque PR problem if they released him. I said before that year, Driver needed to retire instead of Forcing the Packers hand.

Jameson's picture

I guess I don't see why it was a big deal to keep Driver. He wasn't expensive, he was a good leader for the team, and didn't take a roster spot from Boykin.

Stroh's picture

You don't have a problem paying him 2M to sit on his ass, but you do have a problem paying a starter 3M? OK then...

Packers didn't need his leadership either. Jennings Jones Nelson were more than capable to taking more leadership, not to mention Cobb even tho he is young.

KennyPayne's picture

Did I just read an article blaming, at least implicitly, the Pack's downfall since 2010 on the GM?

Wow, after years nothing but hosannas praising TT, is the press finally going to take a hard look at who is responsible for the backup QB, safety position, Burnett and B. Jones contracts, etc.?

Grant's picture

Capers should be on a short leash, even fired. I get that. But at the end of the day its about getting BETTER PLAYERS. Maybe a top 12 pick in the draft is what this team needs. Remember 2008 when the sky was falling? Well, 2 years later GB won a SB. This season has given GB easy decisions on high contract guys like tramon, bj and jermichael. Blessing in disguise?

Longshanks's picture

Wow Kenny, just look at how fucking spoiled you (we) are. You are upset at the G.M. over the BACKUP QB position failing to mention TT drafted the greatest qb of all time with the 24th pick when he had no dire need at the time to do so. We're talking the backup qb man, not the starting qb, we're talking about backup!! and no I am ain't Allen Iverson.

Read what OzPackerfan said. He said it best. TT had assemebled this year the greatest Packers team of all time possibly but it all came crashing down with injury after injury and the dam finally broke when Rodgers, the MVP of the league got hurt. So what do you and some whiney reporter do? Blame TT on not having a backup qb as good as Rodgers? Give me a fucking break!! Yes, TT has made mistakes but I'll take him any fucking day over anyone else in the league.

I am actually glad Rodgers went down. This is what some of you Jacks needed to experience like so many have in the 70's and 80's. A fucking reality check of what it feels like when your GM actually does suck WHEN EVERYONES HEALTHY!! like so many older Packers fans experienced in the 70's and 80's and early 90's.

You all claim you appreciate Rodgers yet slam TT when half his talented roster is injured and there's morons even asking for TT to be fired. I can only think those that do are of a certain age group that have no clue or patience to sit thru a bad Packers season.

Try sitting thru almost 20 plus years of bad seasons and see how that toughens you. This shit we are going thru now is a piece of fucking cake!! Quit your whining!!


UP-Packer's picture

Why do you waste so many words. You're in denial like many Packer fans. The GB Packers are all about Aaron Rodgers. There are only a handfull of competent NFL players on the 53 man roster. Most are average or less.

The buck stops on TT's desk. The best thing for all would be his early retirement.

Stroh's picture

Your ignorant! Go be lions fan your in Michigan afterall.

UP-Packer's picture

Have to laugh when I see you posting anything. You're one of the last die-hard kool-aid drinkers.

0-4-1 is all that counts.

Just accept it & hope for change & improvement. There's no need to continue making excuses.

Uncle Louie's picture

No Shit! First their beat up and tired, suffering from jet lag. He's already making excuses for the next game, " too long of a layoff between games". Think with your eyes, they don't lie; this team is clueless. Keep watching you'll figure it out eventually.

Stroh's picture

One mistake thinking Coleman or Harrell were good enough at QB. They made the moves to fix the BACKUP QB position and moved forward. This is a 10-2 team if Rodgers isnt' injured and we are in the hunt for a bye and homefield advantage in the NFC.

Look at the record since Thompson/McCarthy arrived! You don't find GM/HC combo's much better. They are among the best in the NFL. If you wanna just dump them w/ as successful as they've been you will find out what the 70's and 80's was like! I'll take winning the division and getting into the Playoffs virtually every year instead of the garbage that existed 20+ years ago!

Longshanks's picture

So you and Louie are going to fire Ted Thompson because Aaron Rodgers got hurt? Brilliant idea!! Maybe you two should apply for the GM job since you two would put us right back to the 70's and 80's permanently. You do realize getting rid of Thompson is a recipe for disaster right?


Longshanks's picture

UP-Packer, I am accepting the record. I understand it's because our elite quarterback is missing. You don't!! You want to fire the guy that brought you the best quarterback in the NFL and by next season the best running back in the NFL in Eddie Lacy.

The excuses of "jet lag" are what some of us older people do to lighten the situation as we've been down this road before many a times. All you can do is laugh. The good news is this isn't the 70's and 80's and we actually do have the best qb in the NFL when he's healthy. That's why I am not whining. I am content with a super bowl once every 10 years or so. I don't throw a fit when things go up in smoke like this year due to injury.


madmanJack's picture

hey, i wouldn't be knocking the UP fans or Packer fans across the US....just cause you live in Wisconsin doesn't give you any special privileges as a fan.
i'm a Yooper and an owner and we have a large and loyal Packer following so don't be dissing us!

Brian's picture

Longshanks...well stated. I am old enough to remember Super Bowl 1 & 2. Then, the team aged, the past was held onto with the coaches that replaced Lombardi and the shit storm began and lasted 20 years. This team is not is missing a hell of a lot of above average players right now and one of the top 3 QBs in the league.

hump's picture


madmanJack's picture

if it was such a no brainer, why did 24 teams pass on a franchise QB.oh yeah, they knew that Favre was near retirement and they felt sorry for TT.

UP-Packer's picture

Great read, CD. There isn't anything wrong with exposing the truth. You'll still have some of the last kool-aid drinkers somehow defend 0-4-1. But, their denials and saying over & over "everything will be fine" won't change what is so obvious.

Everyone is held accountable. "GM speak" & "Coach speak" can't fool the masses forever.

Jameson's picture

Interesting read!

It seems to me a lot of our issues are issues that are hauntingly similar year in and year out.

Little success in the red zone

Poor pass protection

Receivers not getting open

Poor tackling

No return game

Blown coverages

Kickoff/Punt coverage break downs

Ineffective four man pressures

Predictable play calling

I have a feeling Capers is going to fall on the sword at the end of the season and while I'll shed no tears for him if he leaves, I think he's just one of many who are failing this team. The Packer problems are not solely a result of failures on the part of Dom Capers.

This starts with Ted Thompson and getting some playmakers onto this team. His drafts are very average at best, and not so good in the early rounds, and for a guy who refuses to go after any free agent he needs to be better about evaluating talent, especially in rounds 1-3. How can we fail so miserably at preparing a back up QB? How do we get to September 1st with no back up signed? That's pretty unacceptable. As is not drafting some better offensive linemen. How can he allow his 130 million dollar investment get knocked on his ass every other play? And a 3-4 defense needs play making linebackers and well we have Brad Jones and AJ Hawk. Enough said.

And then there is Mike McCarthy. How is it that this offensive genius cannot generate a play to get us into the end zone with Aaron fricking Rodgers? How is our offense so predictable defenses can close their eyes and stop us? Lacy run Lacy run pass punt. We're just way too vanilla. And for a QB guru he failed with BJ Coleman, Graham Harrell, and Brian Brohm. He cannot seem to get problems corrected or rally the troops. He allowed this team to completely give up and fall apart. They don't believe in themselves, the person next to them, or to what they are trying to do.

I realize our special teams failures have a lot to do with inexperience but honest to goodness can we please figure out some better coverage schemes? And can we please find a returner who can get past the 20? Our field position sucks nearly every time.

Players hold some accountability too. You are in the damn NFL. Tackling is something you all learned in pee-wee football 20 years ago. Play like you belong here.

Bottom line, we desperately need some changes in more areas than just defense. I'm not saying fire everyone, but we got a lot more problems than just on defense. Lots of changes need to be made-whether it's coaching staff, schemes, players or what not. Enough is enough.

Buster's picture

Nice post. You've covered quite a few items. Hope the Pack are able to be more proactive this off-season than last off-season. The GM needs to get off his hands and try being bolder and much more decisive.

RC Packer Fan's picture

To be fair. Brohm is not McCarthy's fault. That would be a Thompson bad pick. I don't think there is any Coach that could have gotten anything out of Brohm. I still maintain he was Thompson's worst pick ever. He just could not play in this league.

hump's picture


4thand1's picture

Geez , you trolls better start hammering Chicago. They just lost to Matt Cassel and the Vikes. Fire everyone in Chicago! Every team in the league invest all your resources right now in a starting quality back up QB. Make sure all you back ups at every position are pro bowl caliber too. Never read such a bunch by mental case bloggers in my life.

cLowNEY42's picture

Cool - so we're going to use the Bears as a measuring stick.


By the way - I'd take Marshall, Jeffery, Bennett, Forte over Nelson, Jones, Quarless, Lacy every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

madmanJack's picture


Stroh's picture

Your comparing their starters against a few of our backups... You do realize that don't you! Lets try vs Nelson, Cobb, Jones and Finley and run the comparison again.

cLowNEY42's picture

Forte > Lacy
Marshall > Cobb
Jeffery > Nelson
Bennett = Finley
You got me on Jones, though. No comparable player on the Bears.

I just have never been that enamored with the Packers' WR's. You know why Jones always has to make amazing catches over/around people? Because he CAN'T SEPARATE FROM ANYONE.

Stroh's picture

No Shit... I can't believe all the idiots coming out of the woodwork. Not like everyone didn't know losing Rodgers would about end the Packers season! You simply can't have a backup of good enough quality on your bench when your paying your Franchise 20M. It was a given when the season started that if Rodgers was out for more than 1/4 of the season we were fucked. That's hardly an indictment on Thompson or McCarthy either. Just a simple fact of life if you have a QB as accomplished as Rodgers. They even refuse to give credit where its due for getting Rodgers in the first place! Just ignorant...

pooch's picture

I don't understand the quality of play on defense ,offensive line,S.T's and why that has anything to do with the injury to Rogers.Rogers does not block,tackle or play S.T's.I can understand the dropoff at QB,but not the degree of dropoff to the performance of the rest of the team.

4thand1's picture

I'll explain it, injuries. Next man up comes from special teams. Practice squad moves to special teams. Special ed people post.

pooch's picture

They had no injuries on d other than Hayward ,poor poor excuse,offense eds was hurt but o was collaspsing before.Dont keep making lame excuses,cobb dont block,filey dont block,cobb dont tackle,finley dont tackle, enough now with injuries,every team has them

pooch's picture

Really you havent watched S.T the last 2 years???? Lions game strw the broke camels back

pooch's picture

How many games do i have to watch and its penalty after penalty on S.T.....time move on to something else

Stroh's picture

No injuries on D other than Hayward? Really? Matthews 4 games, Perry 5 games, Worthy season, Burnett 3 games, Shields game or 2. Along w/ Hayward that's our 3 best playmakers on D missing a good part of the season.

WKUPackFan's picture

Unfortunately the idiots didn't come out of the woodwork, they were already here. They've been saying the same stupid stuff all year, they're just emboldened now. Cow, Morgan Mundane, Al Katraz, Up Packer, I think they're all the same guy. You know, the ones that think Washington and Minnesota are model franchises because those teams sign the "name" high priced FAs and trade all their draft picks to have first rounders at every position. Hate to be rude, but sick of reading such tripe.

pooch's picture

Lion game,Vikings 2-8 team please who was hurt on d line, jolly who was wildcard in training camp.Lion game Hayward was only starter hurt,every team has injuries, but outgainex by 400 yards,were talking breaking 50 year old records so trash your excuses

pooch's picture

Matt backup whats your point?

pooch's picture

Are you kidding me ,like Worthy ,Burnette would actually make a difference

Buster's picture

That's funny. You don't like what posters say so they are trolls. You need to look up the definition of a troll. You've got it wrong.

4thand1's picture

Some of these so called fans can't be Packer fans. Some of the comments are so ridiculous, they make you want to punch something,(like the poster)

WKUPackFan's picture

The great JR Ewing once famously said regarding Cliff Barnes "The man is so dumb I'm surprised he can feed himself". Congratulations Cow, Morgan Mundane, Al Katraz, and Up-Packer. You've all achieved Cliff Barnes status.

Cow42's picture

I am amazed at how you can look at the talent on this year's team, compare it to the 2010 team and say with a straight face that there isn't a decline going on here.


Stroh's picture

Were amazed you see no talent!

Glorious80's's picture

Hard to sort out exactly what the problems are as it seems a perfect storm of injuries, a tough schedule, poor planning (example, firing the backup quarterback class after the last preseason game), play calling and scheme issues (some related to having to adjust with constant changing rosters), persistent sloppy play, physical and mental fatigue from a short turnaround and don't forget they had an early bye - that meant an 11 game stretch without a break. There could be more injuries in the upcoming games.
Add loss of front office personnel (replaced?)and low round draft position year after year. It catches up. And the other teams have also adjusted.
The team hit a wall. I believe Lombardi has been quoted as saying something like fatigue makes cowards of us all. And the four day interlude following the OT Vikes game with light practice due to injuries, helped set this in motion.
Until they fix these problems, it would be better to hold out AR. Anyway, they shouldn't depend on one player as mentioned before. Hope they can regroup, see what they have in these last games and plan for next year.
A number of the above problems have been creeping in since the SB. Loss of AR just makes it more obvious.

pooch's picture

The offense is so uncreative,just watching vikes and chief game they both split there halfbacks wide in reciever positions,we had franklin last 4-5 weeks to split him out wide with injuries to cobb,jones,fin and duh mashed potatoe mike cant be creative at al,i mean this offense is so fucking bland and predictablel

Stroh's picture

Chiefs and vikes don't have real threats at WR do they? They each have ONE WR to speak of, Jennings and Bowe. I have no problem trying to get Franklin in that kinda role next year if he PROVES he can beat the coverage he gets AND hold onto the ball. We don't know that he'll be able to do either right now.

Stroh's picture

Oh and neither of those teams have QB's that can get the ball downfield either. Hence the NEED to get RB to play WR. That's having to be creative due to lack of personnel, something the Packers don't suffer from at QB and WR.

RC Packer Fan's picture

I agree with most of your points regarding the problems that the other teams have, and the Packers have better options at WR and whatnot...

But I do wish McCarthy would have been more creative when they had Franklin. I would have loved to have seen 2 RB's in the backfield together. Using Lacy and Franklin together, vs Kuhn and Lacy...

Especially in passing situations. It would definitely have given them a lot more of a threat at the RB position in the passing game then Kuhn.
I do wish McCarthy would get a little more creative with the play calling, and formations. Try some more miss direction type of stuff. Try a reverse, whatever... Myles white is really fast and he might be really good on a reverse. We won't know until he actually does so in a game.

pooch's picture

Of course our backup qb cant get ball downfield ,thats my point

Stroh's picture

Flynn seemed to do just fine before he left GB. Not a great arm for sure but for a backup that's what you get. Tolzien has a better arm than Flynn. Give the both an offseason to learn the system in full and get some actual reps and both should be fine as backups. They just didn't have enough time to learn the offense enough. Even Flynn since the Packers complete changed the run calls and checks this offseason. They didn't know what runs to check to when they were in passing plays that wouldn't work since they didn't have the offseason or training camp.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Yeah, I agree. Both will be alot better with an offseason to be with the team.

That being said, I could see the Packers only keeping 1 and possibly drafting a QB. Flynn is a free agent, not that a lot of other teams will be interested, but I do wonder if they would consider going in another direction.
I really am looking forward to seeing what Tolzien can do with an offseason and training camp and preseason with the Packers. I like what I saw from him overall...

Stroh's picture

Going w/ one of Flynn and Tolzien next year is a distinct possibility. My guess is they bring both to training camp and give them a chance to see how good they are. Its possible they draft a QB in the mid to late draft for the PS and only go w/ Flynn or Tolzien on the roster next year.

Cow42's picture

Watching Broncos.
Three possessions.
Every play is a different formation.
Just sayin'.

WKUPackFan's picture

The Vikings played the Chiefs today? Missed that game.

pooch's picture

Hey dumb fuck vikes and bears ,chiefs vs broncos how fucking stupid r u

WKUPackFan's picture

Pooch at 7:24 pm: "just watching vikes and chiefs game". How stupid do I need to be? Add your name to the Cliff Barnes status list above.

pooch's picture

vikes and chief games,omg I forgot the the S,thought you were smart enough to figure it out

Mark in Montana's picture

Can someone tell me who the model is of the organization we should try to be? Is it SF, Seattle ( recent hot franchises with no recent sb wins)? New England (consistently good but also no recent sb wins and a prick coach?) New Orleans ( one recent sb win and a scandal in-between)?
The Giants (perfect storm of sb wins and fan angst)? I'm not saying that some of the comments above regarding assistant coaches and scheme shouldn't be considered, but get a grip. I grew up cheering for a bad Packers franchise and can tell you this is nothing like this. The overall leadership is fine, it's been an off year, but we'll be back in the hunt next year.

Evan's picture

We ARE the model.

4thand1's picture

Don't try to talk sense to some of these people, Mark. Right on though.

Stroh's picture

Thank you for your voice of reason Mark! I lived thru the terrible 70's and 80's and missed the greatness of the 60's. So I know what a shit pile we had before. Packers are lucky to have Thompson/McCarthy IMO. They run a tight ship and have had the Packers in the playoffs and SB contenders nearly every year.

Cow42's picture

I'm going to shit myself the next time I see some duche bring up the "70's and '80's" like they deserve some sort of fucking medal for watching the Packers at that time.

I'M 42... I WAS THERE!

And I still think this team is a disaster.
Other than QB and WR what position group can be counted on?

DB -no.
ILB - no.
OLB - no.
DL - no.
OL - no.
ST - no.

Maybe I'll give you running back.

There are lots of issues with this team.

WKUPackFan's picture

42 means you were 9 in 1980. Pretty sure you missed any meaningful analysis of the 70s. Try again.

Longshanks's picture

Exactly!! Cow WASN'T FUCKING THERE!! despite his claims.


madmanJack's picture

will it be cow43 next year you douchebag?

Jameson's picture

Who said we should try and be anyone else?

We have some problems to fix. We have to draft better. We have to implement new schemes.

But no one, I don't think, is saying go look at Team X and be like them.

New England has a good system. They take nobodies and make them somebodies. BB is a prick but it's hard to argue his system. They lost Brady in week 1 several years ago and they still went on to have a winning season with Matt Cassel under center. A QB that never started a game in college and a QB who never really found much success elsewhere.

BB has won 3 Super Bowls as a coach.

New Orleans did almost nothing last year without Sean Payton. They bring him back this year and suddenly that team is back contending.

Kansas City had a talent filled roster, but it wasn't until Andy Reid came on this year that they put those pieces together.

It's hard to win in the NFL. It's harder to win Super Bowls. There is something to be said about good coaching.

But even still, it's not as if we don't have the right system.

There are just flaws in there.

If you want to be a team that builds solely through the draft, which we clearly are, you need to have coaches who can develop the talent better and you need great talent evaluators. I think we are missing some pieces on both ends. We've had a few too many busts in the draft and we can't seem to help some of these guys move to the next level to compete in the NFL.

We also need to be creative with our plays. We're too predictable right now. We're too easy to read. That has to change.

We don't need to pack up the whole system and throw it out the window. We need to make what we have better and you do that by looking at what isn't working. Where are there breakdowns and what can be done to fix it.

Abandoning everything about how the Green Bay Packers operates isn't necessary, but we certainly can make changes, tweak what we have, and get better.

4thand1's picture

Way to keep it short,lol

Jameson's picture

Thanks for noticing how short my replies are!!

I try and be as concise as I can.

You're welcome.

Mark in Montana's picture

Jameson, you make some good points. My main point is that all of the rest of he 31 have issues of similar magnitude, or worse. The Packers overall are still in the top third if organizations in the league in terms of personnel and coaching. In the age of NFL parity you can't expect much more than that.

Cow42's picture


all have more overall talent.

RunAndHyde's picture

No way. New England has a good tight end on offense and average rbs. A couple decent players on d. Dallas has 3 playmakers on D at best and a couple good players on O.....not to mention the biggest choke artist at qb in NFL history. You could argue the other teams when it comes to talent, but not those 2. NE is just very well coached...

WKUPackFan's picture

Wow Cliff, you listed just enough teams to put GB out of the top third trying to dispute Mark's point. Amazing, you can perform basic math.

You're still wrong of course. CAR, DET, Phil, NYG, DAL, NO have more overall talent than GB? Overall talent currently, including injured players? Don't think so. Keep trying though. You're bound to be right sometime. You might want to learn how to spell "douche" also. To no one's surprise, you got it wrong above.

4thand1's picture

Stroh, there are a few of us. I was 10 when the Packers won the 1st SB nfl/afl title. Then came Dan Devine and the John Hadl deal. 2 and a half shit decades later, Ron Wolfe and the rest is history. This franchise has and is in good hands ever since. The Lynn Dickey era was fun to watch, Lofton, Kaufman, Jefferson, lots of points. No defense. It would be nice to send a few of these fair weather whiners back in time and watch them jump ship.

Jameson's picture

And most of us "whining" just want to see the Packers be successful. It has nothing to do with being a fair weather fan.

I've been a Packer fan ever since I can remember and I'll be a fan until I die. 0-16 or Super Bowl champs I'm here through it all.

I just think we can do better so I "whine" about it. Doesn't mean I'm jumping ship.

~Is that short enough?

Stroh's picture

I was born in '65 so was too young to get the 60's greatness. Started for me w/ Devine. Remember the Hadl trade very well. Packers were a joke thru the 70's and 80's. I grew up in GB and lived there thru that all.

WKUPackFan's picture

1960. The Ice Bowl is the first game I can remember seeing on TV. Suffered through the 70s and 80s. Loved it ever since.

Nobody called you out Jameson. There's a difference between reasonable analysis and whining. A lot of the above is whining with no basis in fact to back it up.

AndrewInAtlanta's picture

Wow CD! Not sure I agree with your premise but you are certainly on track to break the record for most comments on a post. I suppose a writer would consider that a successful article. You got the asylum fired up! Good work!

tundravision's picture

Grazi, AIA. :)

tundravision's picture

Just a post-script:

Does Capers have to be fired? That's a multi-faceted question.

Think back to when TT/MM took over. Remember how no one was guaranteed a job and young athletes were thrown in to compete for jobs, and the cream would rise to the top in the battle?

That's where this team needs to get back to.

So, just firing Capers doesn't make that happen.

But I don't think the return to "playing for your life" can happen while keeping Capers is possible either. Unfortunately, it is the defensive squad that really has few excuses. The offense can at least attribute their issues to injuries. The defense had all 11 starters back on Thursday.

It's possible to fire Capers and not turn the environment around.

But you can't turn the environment around without some major change/disruption, and that would likely include replacing Capers.

But a firing in and of itself doesn't create the paradigm shift this team, particularly the defense, needs.

WKUPackFan's picture

CD, appreciate your efforts, but something is wrong with your basic premise. Are you trying to tell us that CM, Perry, Pickett, Daniels, Jolly, Raji, Datone, Hawk, Lattimore, Neal, Shields, Hayward, Burnett, and even Tramon cannot form a good defense? That's enough talent, it just needs to be used correctly. The only missing parts are another safety and ILB (left B. Jones out on purpose). The point is a change at DC could be the catalyst needed to blend the existing players into a functional unit.

Also, GB is consistently one the youngest teams in the league. TT brings in lots of young players every year. If you're referencing a lack of true competition in the off season you may have a point, but I don't think we have access to the facts to know if this is true. Also, the current CBA precludes any true training camp competition.

I guess I'm missing the paradigm shift you're looking for if it is not predicated by changes in the defensive coaching staff.

tundravision's picture

That's exactly my point.

If you look carefully at this defense, it is loaded with a lot of talent. Raji, Pickett, Hawk, Matthews, and Jones are all first-round draft picks. That's five out of 11 positions.

There's no reason a team with this much talent should be giving up 40 points to the Lions. I'm a strong believer in synergy, and that is playing to a level beyond the mere sum of your parts.

In 2010, this defense played way above the sum of their parts.

This year, they are are playing way below.

Something needs to happen to return the Packers to their winning dominent ways on defense, and bring that synergy back. Right now, its not there.

Stroh's picture

Its a theme of Capers led teams/defenses. Everywhere he's been it the same. Start great playing well above what anyone would expect for the first couple/few years then the wheels start to come off and it goes downhill quickly and isn't recovered. Change the DC to another 34 coordinator and the D should quickly return to being very good. IMO Capers lacks the leadership ability to inspire and keep players playing their best. It no longer just a trend w/ Capers its a theme.

Tundraboy's picture

I wrote this before the Lions game And still feel the same except now I know we also need to get rid of a LOT of dead wood. Newhouse, Hawk ,Kuhn, Raji but most of all the DC. Its a fast league and we have too many players that are some combination of slow, fat and can not tackle.

So here we go

Injuries this year have been so bad its cruel and that is why you need to have depth and not at the expense of talent quality. At the end of the day defense , special teams, the coaching aggressiveness has gone backward . So frustrating to see Rodgers prime and this great opportunity go to waste. Were lucky to have him and are crazy not to make every effort to make the team great again now. I also have to get this off my chest. I have been a fan since I was a kid from 62 on. Saw the great times bad times, and mediocre quarterbacks until Farve and now Aaron, but I think it is f’d up that Capers is not on the field. There is really something wrong with that. Is this football or what, Coaches need to be on the field. Anyway as far as the Draft and develop approach it has worked. This team has more talent than it has had in a long time but not enough. So a FA or 2 is a must. Draft on defense other than Clay has been non existent, Need 2 true linebacker studs, safeties, and a TE . Loss of Collins and now Woodson and the ripple effect has exposed team over and over.

Just need to fix the D. Now

Lou's picture

As Brett Favre would say, "It Is What It Is" but many are surprised by what has transpired in the last month. There should be no surprise, you can't find a former player in the media or talking head that when asked during the last 4 pre-seasons to predict the Packers season record that did not preface his comments by saying "all bets are off in Rodgers goes down". Unlike the Chicago Bears, the Packers have "adult leadership" atop the organization and will sort it out at years end, construct a plan and execute it. No, we are not going back to the 70's & 80's. I grew up in Green Bay, went through the Glory Years and then the "death spiral" before adult leadership righted the ship.

MarkinMadison's picture

Pre-season all anyone could talk about was the Packers' depth at CB. So was everyone* wrong, is it a problem with communication, or is the scheme bad? From my point of view, I think this D backfield was much more effective a couple of years ago when they were playing more bump-and-run, and when they had the veterans in place to ensure good communication. Safties are not expensive. If the Packers are going to spend some money in FA this year (and with Finley and others plummeting in value they actually may be able to do so) I think that is where you want to spend it up.

*By "everyone" I mean everyone except the perpetually negative.

lennysmalls's picture

Thanks CD, I agree with mostly everything about this article. I'm a realist when it comes to this season, and it's conceivable that Mike "Scooter" McCarthy's Packers will finish with a 5-10-1 record. If that's the case, it's also conceivable the Packers will pick 10th in the 2014 draft. The teams ahead of the Packers could conceivably be:

Rams (from Redskins)

Could the Packers conceivably go "downey for Clowney"? The Texans, Jaguars, Vikings and Browns are four teams that have needs at QB. As much as I'd dream of seeing Matthews play with his cousin on the Packers, I think the Rams will pick him. The Buccaneers could conceivably be looking for a QB, and if they pick ahead of the Browns and take a QB that could leave the Browns looking for a WR to balance out Josh Gordon. I think Anthony Barr will be gone though in any case. Raiders likely need a receiver, possibly Evans or Watkins. Bills likely will be drafting for an OL to protect EJ Manual, so I think Lewan will go there. That leaves the Falcons, who don't have a running back but who are also deficient on defense, and therefore they could take Clowney.

I'm not saying Clowney would be a good fit in GB. Although he plays in a 3-4 at Alabama, he has had injuries and possible character issues, and the Packers don't seem to do well with injuries (please fire the strength and conditioning coaches now!).

It looks as though Ha Ha Clinton Dix will be available by the time the Packers pick, and that may be there best bet. Of course, some quality TE will be available as well (Amaro, Ebron), but maybe they can find some basketball player off the street as they have more pressing needs.

I do believe the Packers have too many poor players to fix in one year's draft, and of course Teddy should consider signing a FA or two (remember you did pretty well with Woodson Ted). Maybe they can suck for one more year.

RunAndHyde's picture

Clowney plays for SC.

lennysmalls's picture

Sorry, thanks for the correction. Still had Auburn-Alabama on the brain. I don't think SC runs a 3-4. I think Barr is a better fit in the 3-4, but it's a moot point because Barr is likely to be gone by the 10th pick and I think Clowney is a potential bust.

Horse's picture

Atlanta got rid of a bunch of talent, signed a big name FA and got injured at a few key positions, NOT including QB. I wouldn't trade places. Next year when they have a new GM and HC they'll be unstoppable though.

PS: The guys responsible for the way players play are the position coaches, not the DC.

gmanB's picture

TT and MM have built this team with 50 of the 53 players never being on a different team. It is tough for me to say that TT knows exactly what this team needs. I don't want to see TT leave but I would like to see him bring in a veteran player again...much like Woodson. Over the past several seasons good/great FA have been available. Ex: Julius Peppers, Cliff Avril, Paul Kruger, Greg Jennings, Dashon Goldson, Jake Long, Osi Umenyiora, Dwight Freeney. That is just to name a few.

The Packer wouldn't have won in 2010 or 1996 without acquiring the likes of Charles Woodson, (resigning) Chad Clifton, Reggie White, Andre Rison, Sean Jones, and Santana Dotson.

Time to TT and MM apologists to get over their love affair. TT and MM have created this hole now it is time to sign some players to get the packers back on track.

Evan's picture

I'm sorry...Greg Jennings?

As for the rest of your list, they're either way too expensive (Julius Peppers, Dashon Goldson, Paul Kruger, Jake Long), don't fit the system (Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney, Osi Umenyiora, Cliff Avril) or were big injury risks (Jake Long).

Which is not to say there weren't worthwhile FAs in recent years - but you're just naming big names.

Stroh's picture

Clifton was drafted and played his entire career for the Packers.

gmanB's picture

Jennings was a great Packer and has become irrelevant b/c he plays for the Vikings with terrible QB play. Man, I sure would rather have Jennings now over watching formations with Ryan Taylor, Quarless, Bostick, Boykin and even James Jones.

Clifton, like I said, actually resigned before their super bowl season. Are there any OL on the current roster that you can honestly say are franchise guys like Clifton (guys that solidify the line)? Seriously, the often injured Bulaga, the can't find the field Sherrod, EDS, Lang, Bakhtiari, Barclay. Come-on, none of these guys can stay healthy so I can't really call them franchise linemen.

Expensive guys that can be productive are worth signing. It would be a different story if the Packers even attempted to make a splash but they don't.

Veteran leadership counts towards something. Why can't the packers overcome A-Rods injury? Name the next veteran leader on the team?

@Horse, different situations = different outcomes. One big reason to sign a veteran FA is to provide leadership. I see no leadership on this team on either side of the ball. I will agree with you it is a 50/50 gamble.

Horse's picture

gmanB, now go through that list and select the ones that are playing up to fans' high expectations now. As usual, it's roughly a 50-50 crapshoot.

RObert COleman's picture

Games are won and lost in line play, period.
The Packers were nowhere till they signed Reggie then they firmed up their "O" line. Mr. Thompson it's time to look else where like in Cleveland for a Wis.boy Joe Thomas, even the Lions had a U.W. alumi that played havoic against our team. U.W. in a breeding ground for top NFL line

4thand1's picture

Go to the new post, Finley and TE production. I want to hear how Finley is the worst TE to ever strap on a helmet by these Clowneys

Pack66's picture



But, the TT kool-aid drinkers are too busy sucking the **** of their Lord and Master of cheapness, and will end up like the followers in Jonestown…DEAD.

Why don’t the rat ass punks who turned on Favre and said, “He was over-rated, and wasn’t that great..really” come out of the woodwork?

Because they are behaving like the rats that they are…

To admit their Over-Lord TT has made a mistake, any mistake, might show a chink in his armor..and if that’s the case, could the Evil One (FAVRE) maybe have been RIGHT about him….

They can admit NO transgression in their slavish devotion to the “CHEAP ONE”…

And while we’re at it…why is no one attacking Rodgers for only winning ONE SUPER BOWL, like Favre did?


Yeah, I know…it was ALL Favre’s fault for only winning one, (hell, he didn’t even win it according to the TT accolytes, Reggie White did).

But Rodgers gets a pass…

There is a tremendous STINK coming from the Bay area in Wisconsin…and the TT hind-lickers can’t yet smell it…Can you hear me, Longshanks?

Funny…everyone else can though..!!

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"The Bears still suck!"
"A school without football is in danger of deteriorating into a medieval study hall. "
"I firmly believe that any man’s finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle – victorious."