Tight End An Even Bigger Need for the Packers Now
By GilMartin
As the Green Bay Packers entered the offseason, we knew tight end was going to be a big need for the team. Both Robert Tonyan and Marcedes Lewis, the two players who took the most snaps at the position last season were scheduled to be unrestricted free agents.
Since the new league year started earlier this week, we have learned that Tonyan has signed with the Chicago Bears and that Aaron Rodgers wants to continue his career with the New York Jets. Lewis remains an unsigned free agent.
The only tight ends right now on the Packers roster are Josiah Deguara who has been used more as a fullback or H-back and Tyler Davis who the team re-signed. Davis has been used extensively on special teams but has yet to establish himself as a consistent contributor on offense.
The only other tight ends currently on the roster are first-year players Austin Allen and Nick Guggemos. Neither has played a snap in an NFL game.
Even if the Packers do bring back Lewis, the need for a tight end is high. Tonyan was the team’s primary receiving tight end and he won’t be back. If Lewis does return, he will be 39 in May.
The Packers have not had a consistent downfield threat at the position since Jermichael Finley was injured and had to retire back in 2013.
The Packers have tried to get replace Finley since then. Jared Cook dealt with injuries and only started five games in his one season with the team. Jimmy Graham never lived up to his large contract or expectations.
Packers head coach Matt LaFleur likes to use his tight ends in different roles in his offense. Right now, there is no downfield receiver on the roster and no proven primary blocking tight end.
The need will also be greater with Jordan Love taking over as the starting quarterback this year after Rodgers expected departure. Rodgers was often reluctant to throw the football over the middle of the field in part because he was concerned about throwing interceptions. If Love is more open to throwing over the middle, tight ends could be an even bigger part of the offense in 2023, something LaFleur would likely desire.
This year will also be the first time the head coach will be able to run his offensive system without modifying it to include plays that Rodgers liked and was successful with under Mike McCarthy.
There are some free agent tight ends still available, although the Packers don’t have a lot of room under the salary cap to sign them. The odds of the Packers signing Dalton Schultz or Austin Hooper are slim. The Packers may add a more moderately priced tight end as a stopgap move but a game-changer is highly unlikely.
The good news is this is a strong draft for tight ends, one of the best in recent memory. There are presently five tight ends who are expected to be taken early in the draft and who most scouts consider difference makers.
The top prospects are considered Notre Dame alum Michael Mayer, Tucker Kraft out of South Dakota State, Darnell Washington, the 6’7” Georgia product who is also considered a strong blocker, Luke Musgrave of Oregon State who has the most pure athleticism of the tight ends in this draft and Utah’s Dalton Kincaid who is perhaps the most versatile of the group.
The Packers presently hold the 15th overall pick in the draft and they still have their own pick in the second round as well. They may be getting additional draft picks in an eventual Rodgers trade from the Jets. The Pack could use one of their early picks to add a tight end or use one or more of the picks in a trade to add a veteran tight end or to trade up in the draft and get the player they really want.
Regardless of which way GM Brian Gutekunst chooses to address the tight end position, the Packers tight end room will clearly look different in 2023 than it did last season. If the Packers upgrade this position, they can give Love the weapons he needs to successfully run LaFleur’s offense.
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You can follow Gil Martin on Twitter @GilPackers
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Comments (126)
Bear
March 18, 2023 at 12:08 pm
The moving on from aging athletes is something all NFL teams do not just the Packers.
Super stars that spent their entire career with one team and were traded at the end of their career. Some won Super Bowls, MVPs, All Pros.
Jerry Rice to Seahawks.
Unitas to Chargers.
Montana to Chiefs.
McNabb to Redskins.
McNair to Ravens.
Namath to Rams.
Emmitt Smith to Cardinals.
Tomlinson to Jets.
Dorset to Broncos.
Franco Harris to Seahawks.
OJ Simpson to 49ers.
Earl Campbell to Saints.
Jim Taylor to Saints.
Roger Craig to Raiders.
Eddie George to Cowboys.
Thurman Thomas to Dolphins.
Isaac Bruce to 49ers.
Andre Reed to Redskins.
Tony Gonzalez to Falcons.
lou
March 18, 2023 at 01:15 pm
Paul Hornung was another I can remember the headline in the Green Bay Press Gazette - BELIEVE IT OR NOT PAUL HORNUNG IS A SAINT. This was of course in reference to his notorious (but nothing compared to today's players) off the field exploits. I still have the paper, his book "Football And The Single Man" and his Sports Illustrated magazine cover "The True Moral Crisis In Sport".
Since'61
March 18, 2023 at 02:40 pm
Yes I remember that as well. However Hornung was taken by the Saints in the 1967 expansion draft. Rather than join the Saints Hornung retired and never played a down for the Saints. He finished his career and retired as a Green Bay Packer. Thanks, Since '61
jannesbjornson
March 18, 2023 at 03:43 pm
Tiramisu for you.
Since'61
March 18, 2023 at 04:20 pm
Love Tiramisu! Thanks, Since '61
Coldworld
March 19, 2023 at 08:30 am
A reminder that there is good and bad in all of us, including pro athletes.
EnemyTerritory
March 18, 2023 at 12:16 pm
OJ Howard or Max Williams could be solid veteran TE adds. Both cheap. A change of scenery may help. More expensive on a one year prove it could be Irv Smith. Oft injured but effective when healthy
BoHunter
March 18, 2023 at 12:18 pm
Please draft Kincaid or Washington, just watching the SB shows how important it is to have a pass catching TE. Keep Murphy out of the War Room !!
Cheers 🍻
BoHunter
PackyCheese500
March 18, 2023 at 01:01 pm
Even more than a TE, the super bowl shows how important a good Offensive Line is.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 02:24 pm
Bo,
I'd like to see both of these guys on the Packer roster! Very possible depending on the trade with the Jet's.
Turophile
March 18, 2023 at 03:39 pm
I'd go for 3 TEs. One moderate priced vet, one high pick and a developmental guy.
Mayer, Washington, Musgrave or even Kraft would be fine as a higher pick. Add one developmental guy with a late round pick. Kincaid is only listed as 227lbs, which I think is too light to be on the Packers board.
Of the above guys I listed, I just love the idea of getting a 'new' Marcedes Lewis in Washington, He is probably not the best pick at 15, but he should go somewhere about late round one, or early round two.
Tundraboy
March 18, 2023 at 05:47 pm
I'd like to see a more conventional approach with a dominant Oline and receiving tight ends. One of the main reasons we had Mercedes was to enable Rodgers to take the play clock down all the time. Just seems like the backward approach to bolstering the line. Just improve the line!
PhantomII
March 18, 2023 at 09:19 pm
Thank you. You are 100% right. GB fails against very good DL's like SF or TB was every year and the reason is our OL mandate by ML is outside run instead of blocking straight ahead and moving the DL player. The shortest distance to a goal line is STILL a strait line. Using all the TE's in to block even on pass downs cripples GB offense in these games and limits the offensive targets available to the QB and receivers are easily covered ending in a low percentage throw into double coverage, a throw away or a sack. The stronger DL also limits the run game to make us one dimensional in the pass game and limits it as well. This IS the fundamental flaw in ML offense and it starts with him and his TYPE of OL. Bigger meaner stronger bad ass OL IS the fix.
Tundraboy
March 18, 2023 at 09:56 pm
You're very welcome. Certainly wish things were different.
Amazing they don't see this as an organization. Maybe they'll
change now for Love.
Turophile
March 19, 2023 at 05:39 am
Having a very good blocking TE that can also catch well and (despite his size) can run a 4.64 40 will do nothing but help the offense because you truly do not know if Washington will stay in blocking or block-and-release. Love would love to have that security blanket.
You can also use '12' formations, where the other TE is more of a pass catcher. The idea of block-and-release is to fool the eyes of defenders and you still have the 'blocking' TE as a receiving option.
Using two TEs and keeping both in to block on a passing play IS more of a desperation move as it does indeed limit the passing options (though it should help the run).
So much of the battle against a defense is about getting the defense in bad positions and 12 formations have a lot of versatilty built in, if your players can execute well. Sure you can fling five receivers up the field and have a lot of targets, but against a good defense the QB will get very little time to throw and the odds of him being sacked go way up.
Coldworld
March 18, 2023 at 12:22 pm
One could look at this as an acceptance that the TE room needed a fundamental remake. Here is hoping that we just decided that the best we had wasn’t good enough. If that’s true, this is positive.
TarynsEyes
March 18, 2023 at 12:51 pm
"Here is hoping that we just decided that the best we had wasn’t good enough."
The best they had wasn't good enough, and all the hope that was manifested was proven to be wasted time.
I hope, rather, I want the FO and fans to learn to limit the hope expectations of players, and pay more attention to what they aren't, thus enabling what they are to better levels.
Let's give hope a break, it needs time off. It's an abused emotion.
splitpea1
March 18, 2023 at 12:35 pm
I'm good with four of the five guys you mentioned who will be available in the draft. We need a downfield threat, and if Lewis doesn't return, we will definitely need a strong blocker. Mayer seems to be the most NFL-ready of the group, so that gives him a leg up in many peoples' mind. Personally I've been doing a lot of flip-flopping between Mayer, Kincaid, and Washington.
The one that sits atop my "Do Not Draft" list is Musgrave. He leaves a lot be be desired as a blocker, and his college production, which was no doubt influenced by other factors, just wasn't very impressive. Then there's the knee; better now, but could he have a recurring injury? In summary, I really hope Gute isn't seduced by his high R.A.S. and potential high ceiling--stick with the proven commodities because we can't afford to gamble or wait for an extended period of development.
PackyCheese500
March 18, 2023 at 12:59 pm
Try Tucker Kraft of SD St. He is being underrated, and will probably be available in round 2. In round 1 we have to beef up the OL and DL/OLB first, IMO. I would certainly not be upset with a TE like Washington, Mayer, or Kincaid in round 1, as I like all 3 players a lot as well.
Totally agree about Musgrave, too many red flags, such as injuries. His lack of run after catch ability also deters me. I think he can get better as a blocker, but I think there are better prospects than he.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 02:53 pm
Split,
Love me some Kincaid, and Washington. Hands down my TE guys. I want both!
Until we know what the Packers draft haul is from Rodgers it is hard to project anything at this point with the draft. If the Packers end up with only #15 in round one I truly believe the Packers are going straight up either WR, or TE. This means there is almost 100% it has to be one of six players (I am not including offensive line unless Bachtiari or someone else is traded to Jets):
- WR, either Quentin Johnston, JSN, or Jordan Addison. I do not believe Addison is in the equation.
- TE, Dalton Kincaid (as the move TE for receiving), or Darnell Washington (for blocking), or Michael Mayer (all around jack of all trades but master of none).
Sure, I'd love me some RB, Bijan Robinson (but I do not see the Packers being creative enough), or an OT like either Peter Skoronski, Paris Johnson, or Broderick Jones, but do not believe these guys will be drafted in round 1 unless the Packers also have the Jets #13.
In round 2 the Packers are going to once again draft either offense, or they will draft an Edge, or DL. Neither Tucker or Laporta whom I like factor high enough to be a round 2 selection with the Packer needs. Just my opinion. I really like Zach Kuntz as well at TE. I just think round 2 is too rich for these TE's with the many Packer needs, particularly if these are #2 TE's on the Packer roster. In round 3 I believe they are in play if they are still on the board at that time.
Lastly, I know Luke Musgrave is a lighting rod for many here but I believe people are looking at how Musgrave might be used with the Packers incorrectly. His blocking skills would not be a priority in the way the Packers might use him. just like many might be looking at Kincaid incorrectly. Musgrave at 6'6" and 255 lbs who runs a 4.5 - 4.6 would be a great asset in the receiving game. As a hybrid/jumbo TE/WR he would be a great target for Jordan Love. The question once again would be where might Musgrave be drafted? What round and number? If the Packers drafted Kincaid in round 1 they likely do not need Musgrave. If the Packers go a different route in round 1 away from Kincaid then I think Musgrave in round 2 might actually be in play. Let's say the Packers drafted Darnell Washington, or even a Michael Mayer in round 1. Then Musgrave for that deep down field threat may be a very good option. For those who might disagree fire away but I could see how Musgrave could be used in a way that would be very good for the Packer offense. It comes down to how many draft choices they have, and what they want to do in round 1 for a pick. If no TE in round 1 then most likely Musgrave, Tucker, LaPorta, Kunz are left as the top TE's. I think round 2 is too rich for most of these guys based on the Packers needs. Maybe round 3 would be in play for one of them.
Duhawk_47
March 18, 2023 at 03:54 pm
I like your thinking, for sure. Do you think Guys would really take 2 offensive weapons with his first two picks? My thought is that we only could take that route with the addition of Pick 13 or 43 from NYJ. It might be a nice surprise and a great gesture to Love.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 05:12 pm
Duh,
Everything changes in the draft and what Gutey does depending on what picks/players the Packers get. That is why trying to figure out what the Packers will do now is a losing proposition. My best guess is he is being forced to go offense early....and possible often!
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 04:27 pm
Musgrave is the #1 Rated TE on NFL.com's list.
None of us know where he's at on Gutey's board, but we do know where he's rated by the Shield's website.
Luke Musgrave TE • Oregon State 6.49
Dalton Kincaid TE • Utah 6.48
Michael Mayer TE • Notre Dame 6.44
Darnell Washington TE • Georgia 6.38
Luke Schoonmaker TE • Michigan 6.34
Tucker Kraft TE • South Dakota State 6.28
Brenton Strange TE • Penn State 6.21
Davis Allen TE • Clemson 6.19
Sam LaPorta TE • Iowa 6.18
Josh Whyle TE • Cincinnati 6.14
Cameron Latu TE • Alabama 6.10
Zack Kuntz TE • Old Dominion 5.90
Blake Whiteheart TE • Wake Forest 5.88
Payne Durham TE • Purdue 5.83
I was kind of hoping we would get 13 & 43 from the Jets, but that doesn't seem like it is going to happen now. Maybe Gutey will surprise us though.
My perfect scenario is Washington makes it to 45, but I doubt he does.
I think Kuntz will go higher than expected.
Don't know how many draft picks we'll end up with, but I'm hoping we draft at least two TEs who can grow with Love into above average options in the future.
IDK who they'll be, but hoping Gutey's plan is a good one.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 06:40 pm
BD,
Great research and posting of TE's. Thanks!
I am in total agreement with everything. I too have consistently been doing my mock drafts with the Packers getting #13 & #43 from the Jet's. As you know with those two extra picks adds a 1,000,000 extra options on what the Packers can do in the draft. Provides so much flexibility on where they use draft capital, as well as trading up, or trading back.
I am 100% convinced Gutey drafts at minimum 2 TE's. I wouldn't be surprised with a late 7th round TE pick as the 3rd TE drafted. Once the # of draft picks & player exchanges are determined with the Jet's guys like you and I will be able to zero in a little closer on what Gutey might possibly do. Yes, I like the hybrid/jumbo TE, Luke Musgrave much more than most on here. In fact, whenever I mention him I get down voted pretty good by a few. I just think it is short sighted as a receiver he brings a hell of a lot & would hope the Packers are thinking just how they would use either him, Kuntz, or Kincaid. LOL....I know how they would use Washington! :)
#45 for Washington would be a gift from above! I just don't see how he doesn't go by say #20, or #25. He just is too good! Am I crazy with his size and speed to occasionally on 3rd down & short have him operate in the backfield for blocking & the occasional screen?
Lastly, I really like Kuntz and wonder where he will go. He is not a good blocker at this point in time.
greengold
March 18, 2023 at 08:59 pm
Not crazy at all! Nice work, gentlemen. A lot of good stuff here.
Cheesey51
March 18, 2023 at 12:39 pm
.Show JLove some Love and start the Packers on the track with sure passes to TE's.
Bring in a couple of inexpensive TE: Max Williams/bring back Big Dog and draft Kincaid and Musgrave
PackyCheese500
March 18, 2023 at 12:57 pm
The FO doesn’t seem to be interested in bringing back big dog anymore. I like the Maxx Williams signing. I would not draft both Kincaid and Musgrave, that seems to be dedicating more draft capital than necessary at the TE position.
Personally I would take Tucker Kraft of SD St. in round 2. He has lots of YAC upside, makes good catches, and is a great run blocker. Reminds me of Kittle a lot. Even if we get the Jets’ round 1 pick, my first choice would be to wait until round 2 for a tight end, as I think we should spend round 1 building in the trenches. Again, I am not against taking a round 1 TE, I just think we should prioritize the OL and the DL/OLBs.
A lot of people talk about how more weapons will help Love. You know what will help him even more? A great offensive line. We need to protect him the best we can, and Peter Skoronski of Northwestern would be my target. He has versatility, high football IQ, and wants to come to GB.
Not only will a good OL protect Love, it will also help the run blocking, making our rushing attack better (which in turn will also help Love).
dobber
March 18, 2023 at 02:18 pm
"I would not draft both Kincaid and Musgrave, that seems to be dedicating more draft capital than necessary at the TE position."
Agreed: this isn't looking for a finishing piece, and there are holes that need to be filled at money positions. A TE on day 2 (depending on opportunities) and maybe another one on day 3. I think there's another shoe to drop yet in a low-cost combo TE in FA to plug in early and help cover the depth chart.
greengold
March 18, 2023 at 02:40 pm
Exactly.
3-Tech
1-Tech
EDGE
TE
OT
WR
S
CB
We could add one player at each position and still have holes on our roster. Kind of fun looking at it that way, and whittling it down to where we really need the help.
EDGE, TE and OT are calling out for 2 players each, IMO.
Also interesting your mentioning of which days players can/might be best added. Some rounds have higher odds of adding quality starters better than others, and they are all different according to position.
For instance, a starting WR is best found in R1 & R2, with a good drop-off thereafter.
TEs of starter quality are literally found in every round with roughly the same success rate except for R7, where the success rate is 0%.
stormin
March 18, 2023 at 02:32 pm
no one will want to play with this Brett Hundley clone !
HarryHodag
March 18, 2023 at 12:42 pm
The Packers have many needs that the draft won't cover alone, but if they can find a starting TE this year it would be outstanding.
Mayer from Notre Dame is said to be ready for NFL play day 1. There's a deep pool of talent so they could get one in the 5-7 rounds and be good. Mayer is likely to still be available at 15.
This might be a draft where the Packers trade back from 15 and pick up more picks. If they had 2-3 second rounders they could fill the safety-tight end problems.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 03:10 pm
I see Mayer as a good TE with production at the college level. He can both block & receive. However, he lacks speed and seems to be a jack of all trades and master of none. Separation in the NFL is going to be a problem for him. There are quite a few better receiving TE's in the draft, and there are better blockers in the draft. There may not be another TE outside of maybe Tucker who can do both skills as well as Mayer. That is the attraction for Mayer. The Packers are going to have to decide which skill they feel is more important and then draft their guy, or guys (one receiving TE, and one blocking TE).
I love Darnell Washington but outside of a blocker I see him mostly a short yardage TE for receiving such as in the red zone, etc.
Coldworld
March 19, 2023 at 08:56 am
The temptation with Washington is that he can block, can catch and has athleticism that could support a much bigger offensive contribution. Betting on that though means betting on something not seem in film. That’s a trap we all know to be wary of. Was it what he was coached and asked to do or what he is really capable of?
Mayer is a great college TE, but I’m not sure he can be more than a good pro one. A good piece but not a difference maker. Is that a first round proposition? I’m skeptical. The argument for him is if he would fill a hole in an otherwise stacked roster—the ready now aspect as opposed to upside. I don’t see that being a fit for us post Rodgers.
jannesbjornson
March 19, 2023 at 11:36 am
Bowers was their goto guy.
Fubared
March 18, 2023 at 03:16 pm
Mayer was picked by the analyst as an ideal pick for the the pack.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 03:46 pm
I think it is a convenient pick for analysts. I think #15 is too high. However, I'd take Darnell Washington straight up over Mayer.
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 05:58 pm
Me too.
I think you might be underestimating what Washington can do down field though...
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 06:27 pm
BD,
Thanks for the interaction.
I actually feel like I have a pretty good idea of what Washington will bring as a receiver. It isn't like he isn't capable down the field because at 6'7" and a great wing span at 275 lbs he is going to win a lot of contested catches. Plus, when he does a box out using his body to shield defender from the ball he has a huge advantage. I do think he will be a threat from time to time for a 20 yard catch. He is going to be great for that short yardage with some RAC. Where I am coming from is he just isn't a real smooth route runner with the flexibility you ideally would like if you were looking for a true move TE for down field passing.
If he is there at 15 it is going to be very tough to pass this guy up. In fact, I am not sure I could pass this guy up. Johnston, Kincaid, Robinson, Washington, or one of those 3 OT's. Packers likely going to have a lot of options at #15 on offense should they want to go that direction. I hope they do!
MainePackFan
March 18, 2023 at 08:15 pm
Knock,
I would be shocked if Gute took a TE at 15. I hope he doesn't. I don't think there is a TE worth 15. If they did draft a TE at 15 I believe it would be Mayer. His ceiling is lower, but his floor far exceeds the others. He is a much more complete TE. I'm fully onboard with JSN if they are drafting a playmaker at 15. I suspect it more likely Gute goes EDGE or Tackle, but it's a new world who knows. Until the AR trade happens, it's even more impossible to project what Gute will do.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 08:20 pm
Welcome Back MainePackFan!
I agree with the last part of your post. I will also say your thoughts are just as good as any of us making our best predictions. Going to be very interesting isn't it?
MainePackFan
March 19, 2023 at 06:33 pm
It sure is Knock.
greengold
March 18, 2023 at 09:21 pm
I can’t argue that one, Maine.
There are so many needs, and different/optimal ways to address them in a manner that best impacts the roster while minimizing risk.
MainePackFan
March 19, 2023 at 06:34 pm
I agree GG.
Coldworld
March 19, 2023 at 09:02 am
Washington has a much higher ceiling. I’m not sure his floor is significantly lower, given his blocking. Of the 2 I’d go for him. Not at 15 perhaps, or let’s say that’s the dilemma,, but if we trade back in the round then very much so. A blocker/red zone guy perhaps helps us as much as anything to start out.
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 05:44 pm
Ideal for the analyst, because he didn't have to research anything. It's a need, so he slammed a pick in the slot. We haven't drafted a TE in the 1st round since 2000. He's either is an idiot who doesn't do his research, or he thinks we're due. (Probably both.)
Coldworld
March 19, 2023 at 09:04 am
Need TE, found all round TE > conclude fit. Easy, but I think a weak choice. Definitely do not see first round athleticism there.
greengold
March 18, 2023 at 09:13 pm
I love this stuff. Agree, Harry. Been thinking trading out of #15 will greatly depend upon who’s staring at them. Might also see where a player considered lottery falls in their laps, offsetting two adds 20-40 range.
Myself, I like finding out how they have players scouted and slotted. Where/how they fit what we do.
PackyCheese500
March 18, 2023 at 12:48 pm
Maxx Williams, formerly of the Cardinals, would be a great veteran addition in my opinion. Assuming we draft a TE in the first two rounds, I think he would provide a good veteran presence, and is also an excellent blocker. Best thing is his market value is only around 1.3m per year, so very affordable.
Mack Hollins, formerly of the Raiders, is a WR free agent I think we should sign. He has a market value of 2.4 million per year, and would be an Allen Lazard replacement and special teams player too. He had the highest run blocking grade among WRs last season per PFF, and can even line up as a blocking TE on some plays. At 6’4, 221 lbs, he feels like a type of Packers player they should be able to scrounge up from free agency
I love the Rudy Ford re signing. That guy deserves it.
dobber
March 18, 2023 at 02:25 pm
I agree with your sentiment in that a low-cost vet TE who is a capable blocker is likely to be signed...there's a bunch of guys who could fit that bill. BG tends to cover major holes with low-cost vets leading into the draft. He's already done that at S with Rudy Ford and Tavarius Moore.
BAMABADGER
March 18, 2023 at 02:29 pm
I'd draft 2 TEs, one early like Washington/Kincaid, then later with Taylor, Kuntz, Whyle or Mallory. The position will be strengthened over night for years.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 03:10 pm
I am in agreement Bama!
stormin
March 18, 2023 at 02:30 pm
There will be no decent free agents that will want to come to our screwed up organization, the window has closed for this sinking ship !
dobber
March 18, 2023 at 03:32 pm
Players follow the money.
Thegreatreynoldo
March 18, 2023 at 08:14 pm
Players follow the money. Yup.
I suppose a player looking for a prove-it contract wants to be in a place where he is most likely to put up some good stats and put out some nice film. But that is about scheme and personnel whereas that poster was probably talking geography and W/L record.
Tundraboy
March 18, 2023 at 05:50 pm
We'll have a dingy waiting for you.
coolhand
March 18, 2023 at 02:34 pm
Surprised to see Tonyan sign with the bears but Lewis, while a great person, was a 1 dimensional player. We need more athletic TEs who can find the open spaces on the field.
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 06:15 pm
Lewis was thrown to 7 times and caught 6... For 66 yards and 2 TDs.
Hard not to be 1 dimensional when you're not utilized. When you have less targets than games played, that's not good.
Deguara had 15 targets with 13 receptions for 114 yards and zero TDs.
Maybe, our HC needs to look hard at our play designs? Maybe AR passed up opportunities to go to a wide open TE and throw to WRs?
I just hope if we do draft a decent TE, MaLF uses him...
PackEyedOptimist
March 18, 2023 at 02:36 pm
Gil, you left out Sam LaPorta, one of my favorites, and a TE that a number of sites list as a top-3 guy. I additionally would not use "versatile" as my descriptor for Kincaid; he's the best receiver but not a great blocker.
I also really think highly of Zack Kuntz, and his 9.9 RAS will attract a lot of attention; I much prefer him to Musgrave.
TE and DL are our two biggest needs, in my opinion.
Safety and Edge and backup QB and another WR are next.
HOWEVER, history says Gute will pick up free agents in all of those positions before the draft, so the need will change depending on whom he picks up.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 03:51 pm
PEO,
I like LaPorta too for a receiving TE.
The Packers need a very good blocking TE to replace Lewis. If they can get one in FA that would be a big help come draft time, so the Packers can draft anyone of the move TE's, or simply draft Mayer as the all around TE.
I will admit I am really stuck on Kincaid, but putting him aside should the Packers get Darnell Washington for the blocking & short yardage receiving TE, picking someone up like LaPorta, Tucker, or Kuntz in a later round say #3 - 5 would be great. This would allow some other key positions to be addressed early.
PackEyedOptimist
March 19, 2023 at 05:19 am
Washington + LaPorta would be the dream, but I honestly expect a lot of this year's TEs to go higher than the fans are prognosticating. I think there will be a run in the second and third round.
Kincaid remains my favorite receiving TE in the class. Will LaFleur use him enough?
Since'61
March 18, 2023 at 02:46 pm
The Packers TE room is nearly empty at this point. I'm expecting Gute to select 2 TEs during the draft and sign at least one Vet FA to fill up the room. It's possible that they can get one more year out of Lewis is they choose to sign him once again as their blocking TE.
The Packers also need to fill the rooms at Safety and DL. Plus add some depth to their Edge, OL, and WR position groups. A backup QB would be a nice pick up as well.
Gute has a lot of ground to cover in this off season. Thanks, Since '61
greengold
March 18, 2023 at 02:51 pm
I'd have zero problem with the Packers taking one R1, one R2...
The success rate for selecting TEs:
R1 67%
R2 50%
R3 39%
R4 33%
R5 32%
R6 26%
R7 0%
Few TEs get drafted R1. Might not hurt to snap the best of the lot off the board to secure that player to the Packers, depending on how they see the player working in LaFleur's offense.
I want Washington. A solid blocker who can stretch the field as a receiver would help us.
PackEyedOptimist
March 18, 2023 at 03:04 pm
GG, I have Washington as my #1 TE, but I really don't see him as a "field-stretcher." Yes, he ran a 4.64 40, but I think he'd rarely run deep routes. What I think he WILL do is block well and be effective in the third down and red zone situations.
The "success rate" things are interesting, but they really fail to work as a PREDICTOR.
It's like saying the Packers should trade their third-round picks because they've bombed out there so often. That's akin to superstition.
greengold
March 18, 2023 at 03:29 pm
Numbers are from a study conducted in 2015 compiling 10 years of data on all positions. Simple criteria. How many players were drafted by position and round over that past decade, and how many went on to become a starter.
Starters were players who started for at least half of their career. If you're a starter, you're better than most.
Out of 2465 players drafted, 629 became starters for at least half their careers.
Of those 2465 players: 122 QBs, 207 RBs, 421 were OL, 143 were TE, 317 were WR, 442 were DL, 303 were LB, and 510 were DBs.
Those number alone point to how difficult it is to find a really good-elite QB. Ahem... Aaron Rodgers.
O and D players very evenly split, 1210 and 1255 respectively.
Since'61
March 18, 2023 at 04:28 pm
gg I'm not a draftNik. I haven't watched college football since the early 80s so Im in no position to comment on who the Packers should select. So if you recommend a particular player I'm good with him. However, I do have thoughts on the Packers' needs for certain position groups. I'd have no problem if the Packers take a TE in RD 1. However if a game breaker is available at WR when we pick in RD 1 I'd support that as well.
I will purchase the CHTV draft guide as usual however I use it for the information it provides on the Packers selections after they have made them more than I use it to determine who the Packers should select. I just haven't seen any of them play so I'm not in a position to make an educated guess. Thanks, Since '61
greengold
March 19, 2023 at 01:56 am
Since’61, I research players as best I can. Some years I have more time than others to toss at it. Don’t watch a ton of college games, like you, because we have lives! Lol.
Once I get a lay of the land, a sense for our needs, and the players who might best fit I watch as much real game video that’s available, then highlights. I pour over all the player profiles, stats, all from multiple outlets to glean consensus. Have a number of sources I subscribe to. Pour over Big boards, player rankings. Have 3-5 of my most trusted, time tested outlets, see where players sit, how they rank, where they are projected.
I write my notes for months leading up to a draft throughout entire process, and have a system for reference.
Then I build out my own mocks to get a sense of what might be possible. Never touch simulators, as I find them unrealistic.
Some drafts, I know of players well into the Top 400. I’m always amazed when I get near the end, the draft happens, and I realize the info I already know about a good number of UDFAs available.
Best, for me, is learning how much I don’t know.
Eh, it’s a passion of mine I’ve done since… well, into my 4th decade solid, about to begin my 5th.
I’m not nearly as caught up on it all as I once was, but I try to share my best info.
In the end, we fans don’t know dick. We make good guesses and share the love of the game.
When I lived out west, and the internet started… hooooo, baby! Took my game to another level. Pretty funny looking back.
Been fortunate to have gotten to know a number of players, going back to the Super Bowl XXXI days. My favorite players that I get to see and catch up with yearly, when they’re in town, are Gilbert & Santana. Let me tell you, those dudes are a riot, and great guys. Super fun. Usually in the summer, then throughout the season when they’re in for media commitments. Knocking back some beverages and just yakking it up with the two of them is fun as hell. Wonderful souls. Magic moments, and we hardly ever talk football!
I go up to the practices to see the players and always write notes. Geeky stuff, but there are worse vices, and, I just love the game and our Packers. Do similar stuff with the Bucks & Brewers, but not nearly as in depth.
Been on so many Packer forums going back to the very first one, but this is my favorite, and the only one I have time for. Still keep in touch with some poster friends going back to 1992.
I’m a family guy. I work a ton. This is my play. Always been a treat sharing thoughts with you, Since’61! Cheers!
Ps. Can’t say I know needs on O well with so much up in air - but I’m with you on a top WR R1, if that special player is there. As for TE, I’ll take the blocker - the most complete TE we can get - as we will likely run more with Love taking over QB1.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 03:53 pm
Love Washington but he will not stretch the field very well. Think he is great in that short yardage, and red zone areas. Occasionally, can see him pick up that 20-yard reception. Anything more I don't see being realistic.
PackEyedOptimist
March 18, 2023 at 03:12 pm
My biggest concern, S61, is that we may not find an adequate player(s) for our defensive line. This draft is absolutely TERRIBLE for 5-techs, and the free-agent class is weak.
We may need to resurrect the "Psycho" defense!
:-D
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 03:58 pm
I agree that is a concern PEO!
What about how well is Jonathan Ford developing? What happened to that Slaton guy? How much is Wyatt developing? Again, depends on the trade and draft capital but I like guys in round 2 such as Mazi Smithh, Bryan Bresee, or Calijah Kancey in round 2. However, how might you use one of those very big/heavy Edge players like a Adetomiwa Adebawore, or a Keion White along that DL line? Throw in Rashan Gary into the mix as well! Each of these Edge players are in that 280 lb weight.
jannesbjornson
March 18, 2023 at 04:02 pm
Mustipher from Penn State is a massive NT. Morris from Michigan as a five-six tech/DE. The deal is four man fronts is the rule, Barry is the past.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 06:57 pm
The Packers need to stop the run, so they need someone to help plug those holes. Be nice if big Jonathan Ford has made enough improvement to be that guy. Probably unrealistic!
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 03:34 pm
I also hope we see more from Jonathan Ford! He is almost big enough to be a Ford!
jannesbjornson
March 18, 2023 at 04:01 pm
Focus on Edge and grab Benton in the 3rd round. Get more picks in the second round. Grab the TE and Zach Harrison. The first round should go Edge or OT. Slot WRs all over the mid-rounds. The quick bugs are out there with 4.3 speed. Andy Reid will utilize them, but does LaFleur understand the Air raid offense?
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 03:35 pm
I would only take quickies if they can block. Hyatt, I have heard, does well for his size
Since'61
March 18, 2023 at 04:35 pm
Yes I agree Packeyedoptimist. The Packers need DL depth at least not to mention another impact player to play alongside Clark. Unfortunately, this has been the case for years in Green Bay. I thought Reed was a solid rotational player but now he's gone to Seattle. Lowry went to the Vikings but he is no loss IMO.
It looks like DL will be a major question mark again for the 2023 season. Thanks, Since '61
greengold
March 19, 2023 at 02:21 am
Yeah. Agree. There’s one or two I really like early. Wish we could somehow get more picks…
Some prime DL will be available to us. But, we have so many urgent needs. I look at Gary being a question mark coming off ACL. His injury was a very big hit to our D. Preston? Enagbare showed promise, but I’d still like to add two EDGE, OLB & 5-Tech. Another top 1-Tech? Wow.
I’m glad you mentioned this. We’re talking TE, but we could just as easily hit DL/EDGE 13/15…
Trading down both 13 and 15 could be really, really good. Or, at least one of them.
jannesbjornson
March 18, 2023 at 03:56 pm
Blocking Sled TEs can be had in Rds 5-7.
BAMABADGER
March 18, 2023 at 08:00 pm
Exactly what we don't need.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 08:22 pm
Agreed! Time to catch up with the times and select a couple of TE's with real upside. Nothing is more demoralizing as a defense if an offense picks you apart in the middle of the field. The Packers haven't done that consistently for years and focus on the sidelines making it very easy for the defense. Let's add a superstar receiving TE in the middle and with Jordan Love attack the middle of the field.
jannesbjornson
March 19, 2023 at 08:51 am
The TE pick needs to be in round two. You will have shots at Washington, Kincaid and my preference, Tucker Kraft. Some of these sports writers pushing Musgrave to round one are not doing the Homework. Trade down from #15, if the blue chip( Porter,Jr , Broderick jones, Johnston) is gone and see if they can get into the twenties.
We have to temper our expectations until the "trade haul" arrives.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 01:28 pm
Jannes, gave you a thumbs up & I agree with most. Though Kincaid will not fall into round 2. I am not sure Washington will either, but maybe.
The big thing is with all the Packer needs this year offensive line is not one of them. In fact, OL is one of the strongest position groups, so while I love Jones I just am not sure the Packers should use a first rounder on him. Who does he replace, and who do the Packers cut from the current group of OL?
PhantomII
March 18, 2023 at 09:27 pm
He's going to be a Jet with AR
Packer_Fan
March 18, 2023 at 02:58 pm
So far the off season is going just fine for me. Of course the Rodgers trade has to finish so we know what draft picks and player compensation we get. Nixon gives good return capability and CB depth. I wanted Ford for safety depth and spot starter. Nijman and Davis are depth pieces. The 49er safety is depth and special teams depth.
I would like to see the Packers make a FA splash with DL or Edge. And a TE. Just don't know what is available anymore.
Draft picks are up in the air because of the trade. Hopefully within a week that will resolve.
PackEyedOptimist
March 18, 2023 at 03:09 pm
Agree with almost everything you said, except a veteran edge. With Smith, Gary, and Enagbare already on the roster, what we really want is high-ceiling rookies, especially since there are a LOT of . them in this draft. We need a stop-gap (until Gary returns) who may replace Smith in a couple years, while also playing special teams until then.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 04:00 pm
There are so many quality Edge players available in round 2. Round 2 is where I keep thinking the Packers should draft an edge player. I still am holding out hope for two picks in round 1 to focus on offense, and possibly an Edge in round 2.
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 06:35 pm
Very early in the draft process I wanted Andre Carter II. 6' 6 1/2" 256 lbs 33 3/8th inch arms and 9 3/8ths inch hands...
15.5 sacks in '21 - IDK about next season, but before his rookie contract is up, he'll be a beast...
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 06:54 pm
BD,
I was thinking the same as I was intrigued with him, but he really showed poorly at the Combine. His speed, strength, and power was very bad. His draft stock fell significantly. However, as you say give him time to develop strength and gain experience he may mature into a hell of a player. The question is how far down must he fall to make it worthwhile draft pick, plus who do the Packers unload at Edge to make room for him as he develops?
My son-in-law went to West Point and has talked to me a lot about the challenges athletes have in the Army. Meaning just what you say Andre may be a steal in say the 4th or 5th round if he is still there. If I had to speculate I think round 3 is too high for a development Edge for the Packers. Your thoughts?
BAMABADGER
March 19, 2023 at 09:25 am
I attended the Badger vs Army game two seasons ago. As a Junior, Carter II stood out as the best pure athlete on the field other than Jonathan Taylor. Army as a team was obviously outmanned, but Carter had an excellent game. Army cadets leave it all on the field regardless the competition. He would be a valuable asset both on and off the field.
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 03:38 pm
I would be meticulous in my choices of free agents. Never sign the mega-deals on a player who is on the open market If they're on the expensive side, the young ones that are already proven contributors and maybe have some additional upside. DL Zach Allen of the Broncos or S Julian Love of the Seahawks are good examples. Mostly, though, I prefer cheap-ish free agents, no more than 10m per year on average, who have a chance of over-contributing, if you know what I mean
Heyward
March 18, 2023 at 04:49 pm
No question the Packers need a tight end, but the question is does Gutekunst know what a good one looks like? He’s 0 for 3 so far. Graham, Sternberger, and Deguara were all poor choices.
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 06:40 pm
The even bigger question, is can MaLF design plays for a good one? SMH
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 07:00 pm
Let's hope with him working on schemes that he is. However, I think the biggest thing is with Love at QB1 he isn't afraid of going down the center of the field at all. He has some Brett Favre in him that I hope has been tempered sitting behind Rodgers for 3 years. The TE is going to get a good amount of action this year....I believe!
BAMABADGER
March 19, 2023 at 09:44 am
Accessing TE draft talent has been a Packer FO Achille's heel for decades.
246toothpicks
March 18, 2023 at 07:07 pm
I'd have no problem drafting Washington at # 15. I think he'll be that good and such a mismatch for DB's or LB's. I do think it'd be more likely to trade down into the 20's get an extra pick or two and take Washington there. He is my favorite player in the draft this year. JMHO.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 18, 2023 at 07:15 pm
246,
That is worthy of a thumbs up!
I wouldn't have any problem with Washington at #15 at all, but I certainly wouldn't be happy with Mayer at #15. The biggest benefit for Mayer is he is often considered the best all around TE in the draft with his blocking & receiving. I wonder whether that is still the case? I know Darnell Washington wasn't really used much as a receiver, but after watching tape of Washington including the Combine I wonder if Washington might now be considered the better all around TE in the draft? We know he can block better and I think he can play a bigger role in the receiving area should the Packers want.
246toothpicks
March 18, 2023 at 09:37 pm
Well said Knock!
BirdDogUni
March 18, 2023 at 10:20 pm
Just did this one Knock -
13 - Quentin Johnston WR From Jets
15 - Broderick Jones LT
43 - Jahmyr Gibbs RB From Jets
45 - Darnell Washington TE
78 - Jammie Robinson S
116 - Moro Ojomo DT
150 - KJ Henry OLBer
170 - Zack Kuntz TE
233 - Stetson Bennett QB
236 - Elijah Higgins WR
243 - Hunter Luepke FB
255 - Tyreque Jones S
258 - Tavius Robinson OLBer
I like it... Lol
Dragon5
March 18, 2023 at 07:18 pm
Foster Moreau...top graded rookie TE in '19.
Addressing TE in the draft may come down to whether Gute trades back, hopefully a few times rd 1. If we received 13 & 43, I've had as many as 8 2nds in mocks.
dobber
March 18, 2023 at 07:27 pm
Agree on Moreau. He's a very capable combo TE. Drew Sample from CIN fits that mold, too, but he's recovering from an undisclosed knee injury. Both would be similar to (or cheaper than) Tonyan.
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 03:41 pm
I like the idea of Sample.
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 03:40 pm
Moreau is an interesting idea. I've always liked him and thought he was a bit underrated. Good blocker and yard-after-catch specialist. I would like him to come here, although i don't know if he's too expensive. It'll be interesting to see if he follows Carr to New Orleans or if the Raiders bring him back as their new TE1 now that Waller has been dealt to the Giants.
PASSdaRELISH
March 18, 2023 at 07:18 pm
Since we all know we are not going to sniff the SuperBowl this upcoming season, I’m not concerned about getting a player in any round just because they’re supposed to be able to start right away. Let’s draft every player with two thoughts, first that they can excel at what you want them to do, and two that they can do it better than any other player at that position.
golfpacker1
March 18, 2023 at 11:53 pm
It is time to turn the page on Lewis. Yes Big Dog is still a great blocker, but he is a liability in the passing game. The defense doesn't have to respect him receiving wise because we never throw to him. Maybe he isn't fast or quick enough anymore. Yes he caught 6 of 7 passes last year and had the biggest fumble of the year too. He has been a great player but we can sign 2 free agent TEs for what we pay Lewis.
Bottom line is we probably can't afford to pay a single TE $5 million a year. We can blame ourselves for that. (See Rodgers contract last year) But there are some things we can do.
Ask for Jeremy Ruckert-TE Ohio State from the Jets to be included in Rodgers trade. He was a 3rd round pick last year so they shouldn't be in love with him. Good receiving and blocking. Salary $1.1 million
Either trade Savage or flip a 6th or 7th round pick to Denver for Albert Okwuegbanam. His name has been tied to Green Bay for 2 years. 25 years old, 6'5 260lbs, ran 4.4 at combine. Salary $800,000
Draft 2 players. I like Kinkaid because he catches everything and he blocks good enough. I don't need him to pancake everybody but I do want him to catch 60-70 balls. He won't last to our 2nd round pick though. Trade back get more picks. Its the only way to fill our needs. The 2nd TE can be one of ten guys, Cam Latu, Josh Whyle, Schoonmaker ,Mallory,Kemari Averett,Cam Mcdonald,Davis Allen,Brenton Strange all good late picks. Plus not everyone will be drafted. There will be some good UDFAs that we should be in on early.
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 11:32 am
Strange would be my preference. Best blocker
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 11:32 am
Strange would be my preference. Best blocker
stockholder
March 19, 2023 at 09:32 am
Drafting a Te early, is the wrong move.
Tonyan and Lazard should have been kept.
Rodgers would have re-worked his contract for both.
We're now in a Rebuild; and it could last a very long time.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 09:59 am
Had an unrealistic mock draft today for fun where I made a couple trades creating my fantasy draft. Will share this is not how I usually do my drafts as I typically have Edge in round 2, and an OT in round 2 - 4.
Rd 1 #13 (yes, with the Jet's 1st) - WR,Quentin Johnston
Rd 1 #19 (trade back from #15 to #19) - TE, Dalton Kincaid
Rd 1 #22 (trade up with second round picks) always have to go before the Vikings to get Bijan) - RB, Bijan Robinson
Rd 2 #42 (from trade capital) - TE, Darnell Washington
* Not realistic whatsoever but would the above be the draft of the past decade with the first four players? WOW! Just killing a little time prior to my Sunday Funday! Would have liked to pick-up an OT in mid-rounds.
The rest of my draft:
Rd 4 #116 - Edge, K.J. Henry
Rd 5 #150 - Safety, Ronnie Hickman
Rd 5 #170 - DL, Brodric Martin
Rd 7 #233 - QB, Stetson Bennett
Rd 7 #236 - TE, Marshon Ford
Rd 7 #255 - DL, DJ Dale
Rd 7 #258 - Center, Alex Forsyth
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 10:57 am
To each his own way of having fun, but I will just say this: Thank goodness this is not a realistic mock draft.
While I like a lot of these players, some of them either don't fit the Packers' needs right now (take Robinson - why do we take a RB at all, much less in the first round, when our RB room may be our strongest position group on the roster!) or some of them over-commit to a position of need (I don't think taking 2 TEs in the first two days of the draft is a very good allocation of draft capital).
IMO, we need to beef up the trenches. This year's EDGE class is one of the best in a recent while, and we need to take advantage of that and get a stellar player near the top. The OL could also use an upgrade along the interior. Skoronski is the best OL for the job.
If we really want to make Jordan Love's life easier, we will bolster the OL before getting him TEs, WRs, and RBs. None of that will matter if he can't stand up straight. Thankfully, the Packers FO knows this.
I love the pick of Forsyth, though. I think he is a super underrated IOL prospect in this year's draft. Good physical upside, and could prove to be a late-round steal. Brodric Martin, a 330 lb guy with '34 arms, is also a guy we could use on the DL. Great vs the run and has great pass rush upside.
Personally I think our DL is better off than some people suggest. TJ Slaton has been improving, Kenny will (hopefully) be playing without injuries next year, and Wyatt flashed at the end of the year and should definitely be better next year - I'm particularly excited about them. However, we need 1 or 2 more starting-caliber reliable rotation guys to add to the DL. The best DLs. in the league are rotated heavily to keep everyone fresh. Martin would be a step in the right direction. I also want to see what Jonathan "the Ford" Ford can do, too.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 01:18 pm
Packy,
Thanks....I was wondering who it might be that would rain on my fun fantasy draft where I was simply having some fun this morning. LOL!
A drafting analogy might be like comparing the dating scene where each of us have different point of view regarding what constitutes beauty, or brains. I understand drafting the big ole uglies for both sides of the lines, as that is what I usually like doing myself. This year, I believe there is a high probability it is going to deviate from most past year’s draft, and be an outlier. Based on need, I think there likely are going to be offensive skilled position players drafted early, particularly since Edge is so deep in this draft. I have talked often about the uniqueness of Bijan Robinson as a RB. He has awesome hands and since AJ likely only on team in 2023 that Bijan be used creatively as the starting slot WR. Used on jet sweeps, etc. He can be used to spell AJ. We virtually have no decent back-up RB should AJ get hurt. There are many ways a player who is rated as one of the top 3, or 5 players in the draft can be used. Am I suggesting the Packers draft him no!
I am in 'total agreement' regarding needing several DL & Edge players. As I have mentioned in previous comments at CCTV, I usually start drafting Edge & DL in round 2 of this years draft based on the depth at these positions his year, particularly with Edge. Where I completely differ from your post is about using our #1 draft pick Sikorski on the OL. Barring any offseason trades the Packers should have their strongest offensive line in years. We have at minimum 11+ offensive linemen already. Many young 2nd & 3rd year promising OL who are developing, gaining experience, and getting stronger. Most are currently in back-up roles now looking for starting roles. Only Runyan's contract will become an issue following 2023. Therefore, with all the Packer needs in this coming draft which position of need will you sacrifice for Skoronski in round 1? Plus, which player are you cutting from the OL to make room for Skoronski? Is there a glaring OL problem right now going into 2023? I don't believe so, and think the OL is one of the strongest & deepest position groups the team currently has. With the strength of the current offensive line if you really want to help Jordan Love out, particularly since Lazard, Watkins, Cobb, Big Dog, and Tonyan are gone and no longer part of the team who are you going to have play WR & TE? There are big gaping holes at TE, and WR. Why draft a OT in round 1 who might sit on the bench rather than one of TE, WR, Edge, DL, who are needed now?
Please share your thoughts should you disagree regarding the OL.
LT - David Bachtiari - coming off a very promising 2022 season and finally has his knee in good shape. 2nd year players like Zach Tom, Caleb Jones, or Rasheed Walker backing up.
LG - Elgton Jenkins - like DB he has recovered from a devastating knee injury and back to his LG spot at full strength, but able to swing out to tackle should he be needed. Sean Rhyan is unknown at this point, but I want to think he will be a different player in 2023 after being such a disappointing season.
Center - Josh Meyers will be going into his 3rd year and should only be getting stronger & adjusting to the pro game better following his injury shortened rookie year. We have developing players like Jake Hanson, & Zach Tom who can play here and are continually getting stronger & more experienced.
RG - Jon Runyan has a year under his belt now with experience at the RG position. Royce Newman in year 3 is only getting stronger and more experienced as a viable back-up. Sean Rhyan is unknown at this point, but I want to think he will be a different player in 2023 after such a disappointing season.
RT - Yosh Nijman who finally has settled in one position with a year under his belt at RT. 2nd year players like Zach Tom, Caleb Jones, or Rasheed Walker backing up.
Therefore, based on the Packer needs at WR, TE, Safety, Edge, DL, CB, back-up QB which position are you sacrificing of need in the draft, and which of the OL do you want to cut to make room for a rookie OL?
Please share Packy!
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 03:51 pm
I'm a "runner over" - for sure, LOL. TBH though I would not be unhappy with some of the players. It's just I don't believe some of them are best for our current situation. If we had cut Jones (as I thought we should have), I would have seriously considered Bijan - he seems to be the real deal. Oh well - I'm glad that Jones will be back in the Green and Gold, especially since he hasn't been overused.
Part of my belief that we're fine at RB is my confidence in Goodson. He was explosive in the preseason, and I truly believe he would impress if given a chance. An excellent #3 RB.
Personally, of our 5 starting OL, I would replace Runyan. He was no match for Quinnen Williams against the Jets in week 6. He is an average starter, but if we want to make life better for Love, we will help him out in this regard. It will help the pass protection and increase the effectiveness of the run game.
I truly believe Guard is Peter Skoronski's best position, so moving Jenkins to RG and putting Skoronski at LG would be our course of action. If Skoronski does well, maybe we trade Runyan for a 2024 4th or 5th during the 2023 season.
Nijman I believe only needs an offseason of training at RT to get better. He was amazing at LT in Bakhtiari's absence (look at the stats), and was above-average when healthy at RT, which is impressive considering he basically hasn't played at that position since his senior year at V. Tech. I think he will prove to be the long term RT.
Personally, I would prioritize getting a good Edge and a good TE. Those are the best position groups in the 2023 draft class, and we ought to take advantage of that near the top. I don't see how CB is a need when we have Douglas and Stokes. IMO we need to give Stokes at least one more year to prove his rookie season wasn't a fluke. I would then get WR, S, DL, and backup QB. There are some good day 3 WRs that fit the Packers' size requirements, as well as a couple of good DTs in a class that is weak overall. The only safety I would consider taking in round 2 would be Sydney Brown of Illinois - he's really impressed me, check out his highlights.
Another sneaky need for the Packers could be ILB. De'Vondre is getting older, and he was pretty "meh" this past season. If Jack Campbell of Iowa is available in round 2, I would certainly take him. Very physical tackler with a tough, hard working mindset. Was the leader of Iowa's defense this past season; has a very high football IQ. Is a terrific tackler and was outstanding against the run. He was also good in coverage, particularly in zone, where he has great eyes and made a couple of very impressive plays. He even has special teams experience, and, despite being their starting LB, played on STs this past year for Iowa (and made a couple of big plays, too). I could see De'Vondre getting traded post-June first to a LB-needy team like the Commanders or Eagles. He will be 30 too.
A potential late-round or UDFA steal at safety I am watching is John Torchio of Wisconsin. He had 5 picks, 52 tackles, and 6 PBUs last season for the Badgers. A very tough, instinctive safety, nicknamed the "Jewelry Thief," who has a knack for getting his hands on the ball. Had a 90.5 coverage grade this season, best in the FBS. He is also versatile, able to play deep safety (single or double) and in the slot, and sometimes was lined up as a 3rd LB in the box. He is also a good leader, both on and off the field. Watch out for this guy, because I think he could be a MAJOR steal.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 04:33 pm
Packy - Gave you a thumbs up!
A slow day and you answered the call with both a challenge & a good rebuttal. Been rather bored during this 'dark' time of the offseason. Too often posters will make a draft choice, or question a mock draft but do not have the ability to justify their position, or defend. I like your response (and yes, neither of us are necessarily correct), but here is where I'd differ from you above:
- Particularly for this draft, with top draft spots I don't believe in drafting players who might not contribute significantly. OL, Peter Sikorski or LB, Jack Campbell may not see the field much their rookie season behind Runyan, or De'Vondre Campbell. The Packers have almost zero WR's & TE's. Desperate need for several at each position. Also, really need an Edge & DL.
BiJan Robinson - bottom-line Gutey is not drafting him & we both know that. However, with really just Doubs & Watson who is our slot WR? I know we have Melton & Toure but unproven. I think Bijan could play the slot quite often as he has great hands. He also is one of the very best RB's in the past 10-years, if not the best. Being one of the best athletes in the draft, and with AJ on basically a one-year contract I still think Bijan would be a great pick-up (he will be drafted by the Vikings for sure). The only reservation about drafting Bijan is who & what position might we be sacrificing? Hell of a player but hope this explains my thoughts. I have hopes for Goodson too but doubt he is going to be a player anywhere near the level of Bijan. He may be a good back-up to AJ but not likely the player AJ has been for the Packers.
OL - I think most every RG has issues with Quinnen Williams & not just Runyan . I think Runyan is adequate at the position and one would think he should get a little better this year. Like every position on the team it would be nice to have upgrades. Runyan is durable and is an average to above average RG. Meaning I don't think replacing Runyan is the priority draft capital replacement over other positions that are so desperately needed.
CB - I only said CB because I keep thinking Rasul should get moved to Safety this summer. Seems to be better CB's in the draft vs Safeties. Whatever! If Rasul moves there is a need for another CB. If not, not as big of a need.
WR's - I think there are only two WR's who if available you need to pull that trigger. After these two is isn't as critical what round you go WR. That is Quenton Johnston, or JSN. Addison, Flowers, Boutte are on a little lower tier. Pretty much everyone else on yet another tier. FYI - I am just making a general statement without wanting to quibble over WR's and how they rank, etc.
TE's - holy hanna they need help! Big help! Going to be the most fascinating area for me to see what the Pack do.
Edge - huge! Again a significant area of need. IMO, they could use two more good ones.
DL - at least one good one is needed
Again, thanks! Made me smile and gave me something to do today. Now I am off for Sunday Funday and concert tickets. :)
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 05:04 pm
You are welcome - i enjoy these friendly discussions too.
Don't count out Goodson. Just because he was an UDFA doesn't mean he can't be a good player, and the Packers are a particularly good team at finding UDFA gems. Remember Jones was a 5th round pick.
I think Stokes deserves a chance in 2023. We could add some depth at the position on day 3, though.
I like both Johnston and JSN, although one of them, if not both, may be off the board by the time we pick at #15 (or #13).
I will also be interested to see what the FO does at TE. I would be very happy with any one of Mayer, Kinciad, Washington, or Kraft.
I also think EDGE is a HUGE need. The idea occurred to me - do you think we could ask for Jermaine Johnson and a 3rd-4th round pick in return for Rodgers? What would you think of that? Were you high on Johnson last year? His college highlights sure look like something.
If not, I would like us to take one of Lukas Van Ness and Felix Anudike Uzomah. Those two are my favorite guys. Foskey, Derick Hall, Nolan Smith, and Mike Morris I also like, just a bit less so than those top 2
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 05:14 pm
LOL!
Running out door....late tonight or tomorrow response. :)
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 05:14 pm
LOL!
Running out door....late tonight or tomorrow response. :)
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 19, 2023 at 10:53 pm
Wow, I had to go back and refresh my memory of Edge rushers. I recall, I wasn't as high on Jermaine Johnson as I was on guys who I thought would be available when the Packers drafted in round 2. Yes, I was upset the Packers used 2 second round picks for Watson as I thought the Pack could have taken a WR with the 1st pick in round 2, and then taken a David Ojabo from MI, Boye Mafe from MN, or Nik Bonitto from Oklahoma. Shows what I know!
Here is what I found out about Jermaine after his rookie season:
He is 6'4" and 252 lbs running the 40 in 4.5 to 4.52. He was an NFL ready difference maker who already looked like one of the better players in the league at his position with a run-stop rate of 9.8% that led all rookie edge rushers, but was eighth best out of 129 qualified edge rushers (95th percentile). He was extremely good at shedding blocks and tracking down the ball carrier. He only had 2.5 sacks, 5 quarterbacks hits, and only 14 total pressures in 14 games. Underwhelming as a pass rusher in year 1.
Let's take a look at Kingsley Enagbare who is 6'3" and 258 lbs who runs the 40 yard in 4.87. Much slower! Kingsley had 31 tackles, 18 solo, and 3 sacks. Someone who likes researching can go compare the two in their rookie season in terms of sacks/pressure/hits per play.
I'd say Jermaine is the much better & smooth/quicker athlete, while Kingsley is more the strength/power. Assuming that they both have similar motivation/drive I would think Jermaine should have more upside long-term. Who knows! If the Packers can get him thrown in the trade with draft picks I'd be all for it. How much better might he become than Garvin & Kingsley? Hopefully, he is ready to make the jump from rookie season to year 2.
PackAttack4155
March 19, 2023 at 01:29 pm
No Hunter Luepke in the seventh? I see the FB chosen in a lot of mock drafts, realistic or otherwise.
Qoojo
March 19, 2023 at 10:40 am
Lazard was half TE. Lewis was a tackle that ran passing routes. Davis is the guy you use when you want a turnover or drop. Tonyan was still recovering from injury. They will miss Lazard more than the other guys. Seems strange to develop a TE like Tonyan, then let him go. I suspect they figure he won't do more than last season.
It's difficult to predict how a new TE will do since the new TE will not have to spend 2-3 years in AR's no trust zone and be ignored. So a new guy might actually get some use.
vin0770
March 19, 2023 at 12:51 pm
The dude from ND Mayer easily looked the most fluid flexible athlete, (good at finding/adjusting to the ball if you see his highlights,) at the combine to me with the right size. And then I saw his 40 time…slow, damn.
So give me that gigantic Washington dude that was so much stronger than the rest it was like men vs boys and will catch anything in his zip code.
PackAttack4155
March 19, 2023 at 01:23 pm
I hope they bring Lewis back, his leadership will be great for any rookie(s) they bring in. He'd help with their development better than any TE coach on staff in the last 15+ years, and his blocking helps hide the weaknesses of right tackles on the roster.
PackyCheese500
March 19, 2023 at 04:02 pm
I agree with you also for the reasons you stated, but I don't think it's likely, unfortunately.
golfpacker1
March 19, 2023 at 08:27 pm
Knock, I can see the pick of Bijan Robinson. In my mocks he is usually gone. But if I picked him I would trade Aaron Jones before the end of round 1. He would be pretty popular and I would think we could get at most a 2nd and at worst a 3rd and 6th. With the extra 3rd we get someone good at a position of need, and we then trade the 6th for Broncos TE Albert Okwuegbunam. He could start for us next year easily.
As good as AJ is, Bijan is a bigtime upgrade in talent, a legit game changer. Won't happen but its fun.
I also like the 2 TEs. It rebuilds the TE room with 2 studs. There really are potentially some great TE in this draft.
I have picked in alot of my drafts Ronnie Hickman if I missed on Battle. KJ Henry was my 2nd E after Zach Harrison-Ohio ST. Also like YaYa Diaby @ E. Brodric Martin is always a late round pick.
Stetson Bennett is interesting. He is a really good QB. Yeah he played with great talent but HE was the MVP of the games, not them. He will make a great backup borderline starter like Gardner Minshew.
I did like Mike Morris-E until he ran a 5.0 40 @ combine. Mock drafts are fun. If they only worked realtime.
My other late guys are Matt Landers WR, Evan Hull if I miss on RB, Jake Moody to replace Mason Crosby and
TE Kemari Averett-Betune Cookman has great highlights.
BirdDogUni
March 19, 2023 at 11:13 pm
It wouldn't surprise me if Gutey traded 33 or 69, but if he does, I expect him to do it before the trade deadline, to a team that had an injury or is making a push at a SB run.
I think Gutey will hedge his bets and get some extra draft capital for next season, just in case we need it.
I routinely take Matt Landers, Evan Hull, Moody, and Tavius Robinson.
Robinson is rated higher by NFL.com than many guys going in the 2nd round.
Tavius Robinson is 6' 6" 257 lbs 33 3/4" arms 9 5/8" hands Ran a 4.66 40 and is ranked highly by NFL.com... (6.18)
I think he'll go sooner than people think, but he does need to get stronger, for sure. I'll be watching him closely.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 20, 2023 at 06:33 am
GP,
I like many of your ideas! Glad you see value of Bijan and what he could bring. Instant offensive firepower!
golfpacker1
March 20, 2023 at 02:44 pm
I am really impressed with alot of this years draftable TE. Rewatched highlights of Tucker Kraft and Michael Mayer and either could be a great 1st pick for us, (IF) we trade back to end of 1st round and land 2 extra picks.
Trading back is the key to changing this draft from good to great. The difference between filling some holes and filling alot of holes in our roster.
I thought Washington would be our best choice for an early TE because his blocking ability set him apart from the others. Plus his catching ability is way underrated. But after watching highlights Kraft and Mayer block really well too. Kraft might be my 1st TE off the board now when I factor in he can play in cold weather.
I think Washington will go mid 1st so every other TE should still be in play late 1st round. Plus we should have multiple chances later to pick up another good one. So draft 2, sign 2 cheaper veteran free agents like Foster Moreau. O J Howard, Maxx Williams, Austin Hooper or? Maybe we trade for Albert Okwuegbunam-Broncos or get Jeremy Ruckert included in the Rodgers trade. We turn a position from a weakness into a strength for not much $$$.
golfpacker1
March 22, 2023 at 10:47 am
I think TE has become the biggest need for Green Bay because we can't fill it or fix it through free agency. To get a really good not great TE or player in general cost too much and really no currently available free agent TEs move the needle. Bottom line is we just can't afford even mid sized contracts now.
We have to draft 2 TE in ths draft and it has to start with the first player we draft being a 3 down TE , but only after trading back to later in 1st or even better early 2nd. I think Mayer, Kraft, Kinkaid, Musgrave etc will all be available there. Looking at different draft websites team needs ther are not many teams listed with primary need being TE or for that fact Safety either. The run will be in the 2nd round so we get our choice late 1st or early 2nd. We need a game changer @ TE in the draft this year. Would be big for Love's success next year.
Everyone has their favorites for 2nd TE taken and ther are alot of good choices luckily. Kuntz,Laporta,Schoonmaker and Latu are underrated. Later Josh Whyle, Will Mallory ,Kemari Averett,Brenton Strange,Camren Mcdonald, Davis Allen would fill spots and all have talent to be really good players. If any of these guys don't get drafted Green Bay has such a need for TE that I would think they would be interested and we should be all over them as UFDA choices.
I still think it is a no brainer to demand Jeremy Ruckert-Te be included in the trade for Rodgers because of our need and the fact that the Jets don't need him. He is 3rd on depth chart ther and would be our best TE now.
The other quick fix and would solve a problem with Savage and his bloated contract would be to trade him to Denver for Albert Okwuegbunam-TE. Denver has a need at Safety and we need TE. Okwuegbanam is a talent waiting for a chance and change of scenery. The only reason he hasn't broke out is because Denver's QBs have been terrible for years. If they would take Savage we save $5 million off the cap. Okwuegbunam is only minimum salary @ $900,000. His combine measureables were 6'5 260lbs and 4.4 40. 23 TD in 33 games at Missouri. Watch his Missouri highlights you will see the talent that is being wasted in Denver.
golfpacker1
March 22, 2023 at 10:55 am
And it seems that decent Saftey FA are always available and are cheap so replacing Savage the player would not be an issue. Maybe a sweetener could be added. And more starting caliber Safetys will be released and looking for a payday as time goes on before next year. Right now I like Taylor Rapp Rams released him.