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Ravens 23 Packers 0: Game Balls & Lame Calls

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Ravens 23 Packers 0: Game Balls & Lame Calls

The Green Bay Packers reached a new low on Sunday.  For the first time in 11 years, they were shut out at home and erased all of the good feelings after last week's win.  

The Baltimore Ravens weren't great on Sunday, but they didn't have to be.  The Packers couldn't get anything going offensively and the scoreboard showed it with a big fat zero for their efforts on the day. 

On to the best and worst.

Game Balls

Call me lazy if you want, but I can't hand out a game ball for this performance. 

There were some bright spots on defense with Ha Ha Clinton-Dix nabbing a nice interception and we finally saw some life out of Kyler Fackrell.  The defense probably collectively belongs here but it's a team game.  You can't put up zero points at home and expect much, if any praise.

Lame Calls

This week, it's bullet points for the Lame Call section.

  • Brett Hundley is not a good quarterback.  His vision is poor and his mind doesn't work at an NFL level.  He missed several throws in this game that could have produced.  When he did throw it, he was turning it over.  Hundley threw three interceptions and lost a fumble.  That won't win you many games
  • Hundley was sacked six times.  Some of that may have been his holding onto the ball too long but that's not a good look for your protection
  • Devante Mays: three carries, two fumbles.  Thanks for playing and we'll see you next year if there's still a roster spot for you, son
  • Mike McCarthy continues to have to shuffle guys around due to injuries and with a quarterback who isn't even a fraction of the preferred starter and two of his top running backs out, the head coach was in a tough spot coming into this game.  I'm not convinced a much better game plan produces a better result in this contest.  But as I often say, everything points back to the top and the head coach has to take responsibility for a day like this.  You be the judge of whether he did or not from his post game comments
  • The whispers about changes in the Packers organization only get louder after games like this.  Whether it's angry fans who are simply unhappy with the on-field product or it's from those who actually know a thing or two about what goes in at 1265 Lombardi Ave, don't expect these discussions to quiet down anytime soon
  • Fans did the wave and during an injury time out while Kenny Clark was being taken off the field.  Is there a lower moment for Packers fans at Lambeau Field?  One word for that: pathetic.  That's as mindless as it gets and a shameful look.  No amount of alcohol consumption or apathy excuses that behavior
  • The Packers can beat the bottom two or three teams in the league behind Hundley running the offense.  That's it.  Fortunately, the Browns are on the schedule this year
  • I really wonder what Aaron Rodgers is thinking right now.  What is he going to be coming back to by the time he's healthy?  Is it worth his returning?  

Please chime in with your thoughts below and please keep it civil.

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Fan friendly comments only: off Comments (115) This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.

Grimbo's picture

Agree with your comment that Hundley is not an NFL quarterback. I see now why Bennett quit. I would like to see Callahan in there. I think he has much more pocket presence than Hundley. I know McCarthy won't start him, but I have to believe that with this much time invested in Hundley, McCarthy is sick to his stomach. I'm sure the Steelers will feast on and destroy Hundley. Maybe a second half Callahan.

Doug Niemczynski's picture

Season is over. ..no need at all for rogers to come , back I would be outraged if they did play Aaron Rodgers and the only reason I probably would have to save their freaking jobs

dobber's picture

Hundley is not the answer. I held out hope that he was showing some improvement the last couple weeks, but against a team that's very good defensively he turned out to be no more than Scott Tolzien in his limited stint a couple years ago. Every now and then makes a throw, but just isn't an NFL QB.

Tom Silverstein pointed out that MMs game plan against Baltimore was too cute: he needed to plug away in the ground game and leave Hundley to be a manager instead of asking him to make throws against a team that can defend the outside receiver and rush the passer. The defense played well enough yesterday for that to have had a chance to produce a win.

The minute Hundley sits, he's done as a Packer whether it's for Callahan or for someone else. So management has to decide when that is. The Brett Hundley experiment is a failure. If they sign another QB this week, it tells you he's done...something we can all see at this point.

croatpackfan's picture

I was strongly against Kaepernick, but Kaepernick would win this game, I'm sure. If they brought him 5 minutes before the game, he would win it.

I agree with you dobber... And when I remmeber, TT gave 2 picks to go up to get Hundley... I was never high on Brett and Tyson Hill played way better than Hundley in preseason...

mnklitzke's picture

I think you forget that Kap was awful last year as well.

Since '61's picture

Totally agree. Plus Cap is not good enough to put up with all of the baggage he brings with him. He was good at SF when he had a solid OL and a defense to carry him. He can't play from the pocket and he makes bad decisions with the football. We would lose with Cap just as sure as we have been losing with Hundley. This is Rodger's team, end of story. Thanks, Since '61

dobber's picture

His aggregate 2016 stats were actually not awful (90 qbr with 16 tds and 4 int in 11 starts)...he played on a terrible team, though, and was sacked 36 times. He's still capable of threatening a defense with his legs and that's the benefit he would bring most in a relief role like this.

The bottom line is that any team that signs him right now would polarize their fan base so heavily that any on-field gain (if any) would be lost. He'd be booed immediately by a chunk of the crowd at every game he played every time he ran out onto the field. The media would eat this alive. No team is going to bring that on board.

I'd almost rather have RGIII at this point, and he's one blink away from a concussion every time he steps onto the field.

stockholder's picture

Never sign Kaepernick.!! TT has been good at going up and getting players. Can't fault that. Worthy everyone passed, and TT went after him. Spriggs everyone passed, and TT went after him. Casey Hayward passed, and TT went after him. Hundley passed, and TT went after him. These guys were drafted because of need, and TT refusing to trade for a veteran or sign his own instead. He missed the pieces to produce a winner and settled for the patch. Hundley and the above were cost cutting measures. And thats how TT thinks. If they fail someone else can take their place. Replacements! He got what he paid for. And he even used the word pray at times. The difference was hope. Hind sight: Prayers and Hope are not what wins in the NFl. But it will keep you in the driver seat.

4zone's picture

His mind doesn't work at NFL speed was right on.

johnnyd17's picture

felt the same way after home loss to Colts last season...always despised 'the wave' 6 games to play, maybe a few wins in there? Jamal Williams looks decent, wish they had run Mays sooner and more often

The TKstinator's picture

Fumbles?

croatpackfan's picture

To be honest, I did not expect Mays to fumble. But first fumble was all by team. He was ripped by 4 Ravens DL with no Packers around him. That play was not executed well and that ruined his confidence...

I still believe Devante Mays can be excelent RB in NFL...

Tundraboy's picture

I agree as well. Problem is with MM he's going to be buried, so we will never see it sadly.

packerbackerjim's picture

Kudos to the defense who played better than I would have expected without King and MB.

The glaring take away far beyond lame was the play of Hundley. Taking a sack on 4th down TWICE is the most inept QB play I have ever seen at the Professional level on any team. It’s hard to overstate just how big a gaffe it is. Any other option would have meant the Ravens would start further back. Not once, but twice. He simply doesn’t learn from his mistakes; considering he makes plenty of mistakes, this is clear he cannot play successfully at this level.

HankScorpio's picture

"I really wonder what Aaron Rodgers is thinking right now. What is he going to be coming back to by the time he's healthy? Is it worth his returning? "

He's probably thinking something like: "We were 4-1 and SB contenders when I was healthy. I need to throw everything I have into rehab and do all I can to stay on the field for 16 games next year."

I'm sure he's feeling every bit of the pain Packer fans do. But while most on this site seem convinced this ugly streak is due to systemic organizational incompetence, I'd be willing to bet that Rodgers is only feeling the helplessness of not being able to play and not that things are hopeless even if he does. If he is feeling even a touch of the latter, he's not the QB I think he is. He's not the guy that once told Packer fans to R-E-L-A-X and that he thought they could run the table before backing up those statements.

Nick Perry's picture

Hank I know the Packers were 4-1 but we've watched this SAME movie before. The Packers have a good to great regular season under Rodgers but get hammered in the playoffs. Rodgers covers up all the defects on this team but at the end of the day he doesn't play defense, ST, coach, or make the draft choices. I'm tired of getting stomped in the playoffs. I want a GM and HC who can get us over the hump. Thompson has proved without a doubt he CAN'T do that.

HankScorpio's picture

As a fan, I'm tired of it too.

But the point was about what is Aaron Rodgers thinking now. I'm not privy to his inner thoughts so I can only guess. But my guess is that he is not thinking like a fan, despite the many fans wanting to co-opt him toward their goal of a massive house cleaning in GB. My guess is that he's thinking in a manner consistent with his past words and deeds...one that suggests he has supreme confidence in his ability to win in GB. And that any despair he might feel is about the fact that he cannot prove that on the field, not that it is pointless for him to even try.

croatpackfan's picture

Nick you are not fair, 2014 NFCCG was lost by offense (with Aaron Rodgers) and ST, not by D.

Also, 2015 was all about lack of produce on offensive side of the ball (Jordy Nelson injury - remember?), not so much on D.

2016 was D.

So, you can not tell that offensive side of the ball is without guilt. Sorry, but I think we need to be honest if we want good for team we are fans of ...

Since '61's picture

Croat - How could the offense lose the 2014 NFCCG when the defense was on the field for all 4 Seattle TDs? They committed suicide on the field during the last 3:30 minutes of the game. Plus aaron Rodgers played the game on one leg. If he was 100% we win that game because aaron would have run for a few first downs on some of the Packer drives which would have resulted in taking more time off the clock and/or more Packer points. The 2014 NFCCG is just another of a long line of defensive failures since the 2010 SB. Thanks, Since '61

HankScorpio's picture

The defense produced 6 turnovers in that Seattle game. The offense turned them into 6 points.

There were many singular "if not for that" things about that loss. Including the way the defense crapped the bed in the last few minutes of regulation and OT after pitching a shutout for the first 3 quarters (remember the first Seattle TD was on a fake FG). But 6 points off 6 turnovers is definitely one of the "if not for that" things about that game. It should never have been close enough for that end of game defensive collapse to matter.

dobber's picture

A dozen thumbs-up.

The end of that game was the definition of improbable...

Tundraboy's picture

The NFCG game was lost by MM, turtle mode deluxe and Burnett sliding play. He knows it and the team has never fully recovered from that debacle.

gary g's picture

Nick your comments are right on brother. But it sucks to say these clowns will all be back next year. Murphy kiss TT ass in every interview.

Tundraboy's picture

Damn right NP.

jeremyjjbrown's picture

I'm not worried whether Rodgers is wanting to return this season. I'm worried he may be pondering moving on from the Packers all together. If I was Rodgers I would decline ton negotiate any extensions and stay on track become a free agent. Then, if the Packers don't improve at the organization al level go to a team that has all the pieces except a QB. 2020 sounds like a long way off. But it's only 2 more seasons.

dobber's picture

There is no opt out. The Packers own him for at least two more years. The only 'opt out' he has is to retire, and if I were the Packers I would hold his rights if he did.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-bay-packers/aaron-rodgers-3745/

jeremyjjbrown's picture

Right. Still worried about it longer term. And 2 more years of TT, MM and DC isn't going to help.

Tundraboy's picture

Sigh. Hope THAT nightmare ends sooner than later.

fastmoving's picture

pretty sure there is no such team out there.
And if there is a team, at least kind of, they will not have the cap room.
no roketscience............

jeremyjjbrown's picture

I can think of several right off the top of my head. Broncos, Cardinals, Jags and Bills could be possibilities.

HankScorpio's picture

That's now.

What about in two years? Or 3? Or 4? Why wouldn't the Packers put the tag on Rodgers at least once? Why not twice?

What will the Packers be like in two years? or 3? or 4? Will the 67 yr old DC still be DC? Have other assistants moved on? Will the 64 yr old TT still be GM? Is MM still the HC? How many new players on the roster? 50%? More? How good are they? How good were the guys that they replaced?

It takes quite a Crystal Ball to answer all those questions today.

fastmoving's picture

ok, just because the team you mentioned are leading the defensive stats means they have all pieces in place?
I dont know.....they put a lot cap money in there Ds and not sure how they could affort 35 million a year for AR.
The next thing you would complain about, like a lot of guys here do, would be the fact that there are not enought weapons for 12.
there are only 170 millions for 53 players............

by the way...the Patriots are last in the D standings...just sayn

HankScorpio's picture

Stop worrying because he cannot opt out. Players cannot terminate their contracts, only teams can.

Rodgers is under contract for 2 more years. He can retire, at which point the contract is "paused" and those 2 years remain. But he cannot play anywhere else in those 2 years unless the Packers cut or trade him. The chances of that are so low as to be insignificant. Even if he started to act like the diva many want him to be, the Packers would put up with it for at least 2 years while they worked on alternatives.

After that, franchise tag effectively gives the Packers 2-3 years of team options to retain him until he is 38 or 39. Given his performance to date, the cost of (approx) $25 mil, $30 and $36 mil respectively is not something that the Packers would balk at. Rodgers is smart and he knows that. He also knows that 4 years means at least half the roster is turned over and there is a high likelihood that both DC and TT will retire voluntarily, if they are not forced out. DC is 67 and TT is 64 now. IOWs, the change you think he wants is going to happen anyways in the time it takes for him to leverage his way someplace else.

Again, acting like a diva might alter the equation. But playing with that fire might mean his ability to step into an "instant contender, just add QB" situation is limited as well. Taking the diva road is a years-long process that can be hard to reverse. He got a front-row seat to what that routine cost Favre without bringing about the desired result of a title. I hope he never forgets that.

dobber's picture

Lest we all forget that the last time he broke his collarbone (2013) this team got kicked around and beat up without him and came back to be arguably the best team in football in 2014. Whether it was because some growing up with the team happened or because #12 came back with a chip on his shoulder, the end result was that they played very well the next season.

HankScorpio's picture

That 2014 team should have won the SB. The bit above about the blame game for the loss in Seattle led me to check the drive charts from that game. It made me sick all over again. 6 turnovers by the defense produced 6 lousy points, The defense pitched a shutdown into the 4th quarter. An inexcusable fake FG TD allowed when Seattle had NOTHING going for them on offense. The pop up 2 pt conversion that HHCD couldn't bat away. The onside kick. An epic defensive rollover under 4 to go and into OT. Ugh.

The ugliness of that make the last 4 weeks look like a walk in the park.

daveh's picture

The problems with the Pack, is TT and MM refuse to admit they made mistakes in certain players they draft or bring in . Hundley is a mistake, Kizer only a rookie, but seems to be better than Hunley. Kizer don't have the recievers of GB..I think bringing Rodgers back under any circumstances at stage of the season would be a huge mistake, This team has absolutely no chance of winning a playoff game...Happy Thanksgiving..

Tundraboy's picture

My heart goes out to you RC and your family. Grandmothers are as mine was as well , wise and eternally inspirational.

RCPackerFan's picture

So this one is difficult for me to write.

Yesterday I was sitting in my deer stand and got the news that my grandma passed away. It was something we knew was coming but didn't know when. No matter how much you prepare for something, it doesn't make it any easier when it happens.

My grandma was a HUGE Packers, Brewers, Badgers fan. She is a big reason why I have the passion I do for the very same teams. She is also a reason why I have always remained optimistic when the outlook looked bleak at best. She made me a better fan and person!

I decided to watch the game. I was hoping it would have been my escape from reality. Well that didn't happen.

In her honor I choose to give my game ball to my Grandma. While she wasn't able to watch the game in person, I feel like she was there in spirit.

While most others will be ready to stop watching and honestly I don't blame any of you, I am going to continue to be the Packer fan my grandma would have wanted me to be. I am going to watch with her in the back of my mind each and every week.

I am going to root for them to win just as she would.

The season isn't over yet. There are 6 games left, and I am going to cheer them on for the last 6 games.

Go Pack Go!!!

Bearmeat's picture

I'm sorry for your loss RC.

RE: the less important part of your post. It's pretty tough to watch the Pack right now. Personally hoping for a complete house cleaning. But I'll be there on Sundays parked in front of the tube like always.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Bearmeat!

Nick Perry's picture

RC..I'm so sorry for your loss. My prayers to you and your family.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Nick Perry!

Doug Niemczynski's picture

Sorry about your grandmother but as Packers fans will always refer a Green Bay Packers the problem is it's the Green Bay organization does not listen to the fans karthi needs to be fired Dom Capers needs to be fired Ted Thompson needs to be fired Harlan needs to be fired in Mike Murphy needs to be fired we need to clean house in this organization this is absolutely pathetic that one player Aaron Rodgers has to make this team look halfway decent it is a travesty

croatpackfan's picture

You mean like when fans here was screaming on Mike McCarthy to open playbook for Brett Hundley and let him play?

FAns are rarely right. Not because they do not have knowledge, but because they do not have enough informations...

Tundraboy's picture

That was the right thing to do. Now we have a much better idea of what Hundley is. 3 years was plenty of time to watch Rodgers and learn the playbook. What was lacking was real game experience and now he has that. TT and MM are stubbornly in love with their process to a fault.

HankScorpio's picture

I agree. This Packer team is not built to play with a "game manager" at QB. That approach requires a strong defense and run game, which the Packers do not have. Sink or swim, the coaching staff has to use the passing game to attack or they are signaling to the team that they are giving up on them.

Yes, it is obvious why MM was handcuffing Hundley. It really always was obvious. MM is no fool, despite what so many think.

Any failure MM has in the post-Rodgers portion of this season is based in not badgering TT into getting him a better backup QB than Hundley. It has nothing to do with how they have attacked the opposing defense since Rodgers went down. With Hundley, he's bringing a knife to a gun fight. And no "strategy" is going to make that work.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Doug!

dobber's picture

Take care of yourself, RC. Condolences on your loss.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Dobber!

Donster's picture

You have my sincere sympathies for losing your grandmother RC. May she rest in eternal peace. Prayers to you and your family.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Donster!

GVPacker's picture

Sorry for your loss RC! May your Grandma RIP!

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you GVPacker!

croatpackfan's picture

RC, I'll be with you in supporting Packers, no matters what. And, please take my deepest sympathy...

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Croatpackfan!

jeremyjjbrown's picture

Sorry to hear it RC.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Jeremy!

Since '61's picture

RC - very sorry to learn of your loss. I wish you and your family peace at this time. You may not realize it yet but I'm confident that you have many wonderful memories that will carry you through this difficult and in the future. Thanks, Since '61

dobber's picture

You, sir, are a wordsmith.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thank you Since '61!

Thegreatreynoldo's picture

I am so sorry for your loss. I've said a prayer for your grandmother. It sounds like your grandmother is the inspiration upon which you draw that makes you such a fine poster and fan.

RCPackerFan's picture

Thanks TGR!

much appreciated!

Nick Perry's picture

Game Balls.... Well after a game like that I'd imagine Ted and Mike are at least somewhat closer to being shown the door. That's GOTTA be worth a Game Ball IMO.

Lame Calls.....Whoever decided to use THOSE uniforms as the "Throwbacks". Last year the Packers got pounded by the Cowboys wearing them, and now THAT performance. Shred the uniform, burn the shredding's, and remove them from the Packers Pro Shop. No 50% off sales, no drastic markdowns, just get rid of them and don't ever think about using them again!!!

Lame Calls... To whoever said "Mays just might be the best RB of the three picked". I hate to kick anyone when their down unless your last name is Thompson or McCarthy but WOW. Mays needs to go straight to the PS and do nothing but ball security drills until Spring.

Bearmeat's picture

Add to that the unis look awful anyways and it's not a winning recipe.

dobber's picture

Except that Halloween monsoon game in Chicago, they've never looked good. And they only looked good then because you couldn't tell what they looked like.

Doug Niemczynski's picture

I give McCarthy One Flat football and I give another flat football to Huntley those are the game balls I get out today

Doug Niemczynski's picture

I give McCarthy One Flat football and I give another flat football to Huntley those are the game balls I get out today

Coldworld's picture

If we go back to the strategy of the first two Hundley games before the win in Chicago it will be an admission that they all know Hundley is not NFL capable despite all his time on the bench.

If he plays even half as badly with a similar game plan to yesterday, it will confirm the same thing.

There really is no way to hide for MM. Unless this was an aberration, and Hundley is magnificent versus the Steelers, there will be no place to hide.

At the very least, we should be looking to add a veteran to get ready to manage the team. At least that way we can evaluate the other players through the rest of the season and be better informed of our true needs come draft time.

To continue with Hundley after that total collapse of technique and grasp of the field will only make it impossible to know what we have on offense and defense (exhaustion).

At that point I believe I will have to join the stampede to blame both MM and TT and call for a clear out. Until then, loyalty is admirable, unless it is blind. We shall see on Sunday.

dobber's picture

"At the very least, we should be looking to add a veteran to get ready to manage the team. "

I suspect it would take two weeks, minimum, for a vet to be able to play in this offense (and that's if they signed one today), and there's not many out there of any reasonable quality to choose from. Callahan is not the answer.

croatpackfan's picture

I already wrote, Kapernick would win game against Ravens with minimum preparation. Packers needed just someone who can play the NFL speed level...

dobber's picture

You might be right, but Kaepernick will bring a media circus with him when and wherever he signs. I don't think the Packers will welcome that.

croatpackfan's picture

I might be right, but you are right with that media circus. Nevertheless, I believe TT can handle media...

rdent's picture

I agree, nothing out there, GB is stuck with what they already have.

John Galt's picture

Pathetic team in a pathetic league run by Roger the Moron who is destroying the once great sport of professional football. Vince Lombardi is throwing up in heaven.

So many empty stadiums. Nothing in the US has not been politicized.

Our local VFW just decided no more National Felony League on TV. Good for them.

In the meantime I enjoyed the Badgers vs. the Wolverines and the Hurricanes vs. the Cavaliers. Better football and packed stadiums.

Join the boycott of the NFL.

Spud Rapids's picture

why are you posting on here if you are boycotting then? troll

fastmoving's picture

John the brain is back.............as smart as his boss. Leave the Bagers alone and go to your Vegas Rodeo stuff like you told us last time.
Please never use Lombardi in your fake news............

Razer's picture

I held out hope through the 3rd quarter that we might find a spark against a very beatable Ravens team. But the clouds kept building as Hundley failed, our O-line failed, the RB 's failed and soon there was no spark. It was a bad feeling as a Packers fan to realize that your team is dropping to the bad team level instead of the annual rise to the top. So this is how it feels to know your season is done in November.

I hope the guys play hard to the end. I hope that the team makes some tough choices down the stretch. I hope that the organization makes the required changes going forward.

marpag1's picture

I'll give Davante Adams a game ball.

nostradanus's picture

This team is going down fast like the Titanic with no life boats in sight.
Hundley has physical tools but no instincts - thats not good and McCarthy refuses to put him in position to be successful. Note to Big Mike: Get over your stubborn self. Ted traded up to get Hundley. Really?
Mayes two fumbles in two carries, Really? See you on the practice squad.
Tight Ends? Do we have any? Come on man Really?
Jason Spriggs, the guy Ted Thompson traded up to get?
Really?
Randall Cobb? Ten Million a year? Really?
Clay Mathews injured again? Really
Kenny Clark bad injury. Really?
The Packers Defense a respectable game? Really, too bad that means McCarthy will have an excuse to keep Capers another miserable year.
This years version of the Packers team is the Titanic boys and there are no life boats left. Also; for those of you hoping the Packers tank the season to get a better draft choice? The draft experts are saying that this years College Draft Class is the Worst in decades! Even a rat like Marty Bennett won't touch this cheese, smelly!
Happy Monday :)

fastmoving's picture

for guys like you is everything ......."the worst in decades" all the time.

the good thing is you rarley if ever.....right...............

egbertsouse's picture

Lame call: Self important writer attacking the fans who spent good money to watch this turkey. I wouldn’t have blamed them for busting into the till to get their money back.

fastmoving's picture

Jason is just right..........
Lame call: self important wannabe fans

BillofAltoona's picture

The Packers' hierarchy prides itself in being "hands off". Murphy doesn't tell Ted what to do and Ted doesn't tell McCarthy what to do. The result is now a stale organization where stubborn men set in their ways (MM keeping Capers and sticking with Hundley no matter what and Ted unable to put together a winning defense or unwilling to go after a veteran qb) rule.

gmeyers1's picture

There is no excuse for not having a backup qback who is serviceable. Injuries do happen. We have 2 guys taking up roster spots who can't play. No point in putting somebody in there who couldn't beat out Hundley. That's on Ted Thompson. The question isn't about making the playoffs, it's can the offense score at all. Theyaren't a lock to beat the Browns, You have to score to win.

dobber's picture

But if everyone here seems to believe that this team would only go 4-12 in a full season without ARod, then what does it matter who is backing him up?

gmeyers1's picture

I don't know that 4 is the ceiling. It's not in Minnesota. If you have someone with nfl credentials it gives you a chance. A gm and head coach and head coach who have had someone for 3 years should know whether he deserves a roster spot. Never mind giving him the keys to the kingdom.

mnklitzke's picture

I think the Browns get their first win of the season.

Tarynfor12's picture

Rodgers is an A+ player who makes C- and C+ and the couple of B players better. We have seen the fall off the cliff before when Rodgers gets hurt and how these players are shown for their more truer value when a non-NFL QB takes over....Grade F's all around.
The bigger issue is that this team doesn't draft true talent,it drafts believe to have talent and spend years rubbing the Genie lamp wishing it to come true.The talent a team has,if it does, shouldn't collapse to the level witnessed since Rodgers injury no matter the QB. This team looked pee wee among pee wee's.

dobber's picture

"The talent a team has,if it does, shouldn't collapse to the level witnessed since Rodgers injury no matter the QB. "

The question then becomes: who is responsible for this?
Is it game planning? If so, it falls on the coordinators and the HC.
Is it player development? If so, then it falls largely on the position coaches.

This team isn't completely devoid of talent or the one player wouldn't make the difference he does. People point to the Saints and the fact that they've resurrected themselves this year, but even with a sure first-ballot HOF QB they've struggled to break even in recent years. There are degrees of talent and this team was clearly better than that...so there are players there. That's what makes this collapse all the more troubling.

Bearmeat's picture

No, it's not devoid of talent:

Clark, Martinez, Ryan, HHCD, King, Randall (most of the time), and yes, Perry, on the defensive side of the ball. All young talent. No blue chippers (yet), but several quality starters. Enough to not field a crappy unit.

Bakh, Taylor, Linsley, Adams, Jones are the young/talented players on the offensive side of the ball. Only Bakh is a blue chip talent, but the rest are red chips. That's enough (or should be enough) to field a decent NFL offense. Ironically, there's less talent on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive. Shows you how much better ARod makes everyone around him.

This is on the coaches and the personnel staff. They have to go.

rdent's picture

Dobber, who is responsible for this? For me that has been the million dollar question. Is it lack of talent? TT? Lack of good coaching? MM? Dom Capers? and other assistant coaches? Is it President Mark Murphy? We all know teams go through an off season evaluation process but it appears GB has been missing the mark in the process.

lou's picture

After Hundley's first start I posted that if the team was SERIOUS about the rest of the season they would bring back Flynn (knows the system - healthy and only 31 - minor financial outlay) to keep them in it and hope Rodgers can return late for a playoff run and I got quite a few thumbs down. It appears evident now that I was right and painfully so. I was wrong on keeping Crosby when he was pitiful as well as Adams who had a horrible time catching the ball the year before last so Hundley may still prove me wrong but I doubt that will happen.

HankScorpio's picture

Flynn has been out of football for 2 years. That's why you got thumbs down.

Having said that, the games since then have certainly made the notion much more plausible. Flynn was 3-3 as a starter in GB. Everyone else not named Favre or Rodgers is a combined 1-5-1 since MM became coach. And it was Flynn that rallied them for the tie with a 16 pt 4th Q in relief of Tolzien. So it's more like 3-3-1 for Flynn and 1-5 for Wallace, Tolzien and Hundley.

Zaphod Dog's picture

McCarthy is exposed. Look at his record as an offensive coordinator with the saints and 49ers combined with his packers record without a hall of famer. His record with Brooks, Blake, Smith, Tolzein, Wallace and Hundley is 47-58 or a 45% winning percentage. Below 50% !!!

On the other hand with Favre/Rodgers/Flynn he is 118-62-1 or a 66% winning percentage. It says it all.

Zaphod Dog's picture

Mike Sherman was 53-27 on teams NOT built by TT. for a 66% winning percentage. He was 4-12 with his only TT built team. 25% win percentage. (remember on 12 players from 2004 team were on the 2005 team. Many that were cut such as Mike Wahle and Grey Ruegamer, Nick Barnett and Flanagan went on to fine careers.)
TT is 118-62-1 with Favre/Rodgers/Flynn. 1-6 with all other qb's. He inherited Favre, lucked out with Rodgers and Flynn. All other TT QB's? Brian Brohm, Ingle Martin, BJ Coleman, Graham Harrell, Seneca Wallace, Vince Young, Scott Tolzein. Jury is out on Callahan and we lost Taysom Hill by TT trying to be too clever.
TT is exposed.

marpag1's picture

I don't think your argument really flies. Sherman won a lot of games because he inherited a team from Ron Wolf. And when Sherman inherited that team, he quickly wrecked it by being a horrible general manager... far worse that TT in my opinion. Not even close, really. A lot of those games that Sherman lost were because of a roster that SHERMAN built.

dobber's picture

I agree whole-heartedly. Sherman was way out of his depth running that team. While TT overvalues the draft, Sherman definitely undervalued it. Sherman was also riding an HOF QB and an outstanding RB (Ahman Green). There was nothing beyond the starters left when the bottom fell out, and there wasn't much there, either.

HankScorpio's picture

Wolf's last draft was better than Sherman's 4 drafts combined.

In 2000, Wolf added Clifton, Tauscher, KGB, Na'il Diggs and Bubba Franks. it's a GM dream to add that much in a single draft.

In Sherman's 4 drafts, I'd say Javon Walker, Aaron Kampman, Najeh Davenport, Nick Barnett and Scott Wells would be the 5 best picks.

HankScorpio's picture

And those key player departures were because TT had to clean up a cap mess that Sherman the GM had created.

And don't get me started on how Sherman handled Favre. I'll just say I think it is the biggest reason that Sherman has never been trusted to coach another NFL team, despite a fair amount of success coaching the team Wolf gave him.

Zaphod Dog's picture

not true. sherman went10-6 the year Thompson was hired On HIS guys for the most part.. And as i said he was 53-27 to that point. He didn't suddenly forget how to coach in 2005. TT took away his tools so that TT could rebuild the team in his image (undrafted free agents) and blame it all on Sherman. sure he had some wolf holdovers Wolf was brilliant and some of his guys had great longevity. But when Thompson took over in 2005 he eviscerated the team sending nearly all their decent players to free agency or other teams. Only 12 players from 2004 were on the roster in 2005. He replaced, for instance Mike Wahle with some tomato can named Matt ODwyer. (big fail) He sent half the receiveing crew packing and brought in such banner players as Taco Wallace and Carlyle Holliday. If i wanted to spend the day on google i could make a complete list of all the talent lost the day TT took over (memory fades) but it was a travesty and the team has never recovered. Without the balm of Favre and then Rogers this team would not have had a winning season since 2005. It would have been Forrest Greg and Lindy Infante again. Which you can see now with the evidence in front of your eyes.

HankScorpio's picture

"(memory fades) "

It sure did. Big time.

Maybe in all that googling to refresh your faded memory, you can research why Mike Sherman never got another NFL HC job despite that gaudy record in GB. In a league that loves to recycle HC. There is a reason for it, you know. Several possible reasons in fact.

Zaphod Dog's picture

Sherman went 53-27 before Thompson. 66% winning. Same as what MM has done with Favre and Rogers. 66%. Common thread perhaps? Look at the list of players lost between Sherman's 2004 team (10-6) and Thompson's 2005 team (4-12). It boggles the mind. There is a DIRECT correlation between the players lost and the change in record.

HankScorpio's picture

Maybe if Sherman the GM had paid better attention to the cap, TT would not have needed to let Rivera, Wahle and Shaper become cap casualties. Those were the only 3 departures of significance from '04 to '05.

Thegreatreynoldo's picture

"Only 12 players from 2004 were on the roster in 2005." WRONG.

The answer is 33.

8 of the offensive starters (9 if one includes William Henderson) and 8 of the defensive starters were the same.

Zaphod Dog's picture

Hank and Lou,
If they had brought Flynn in as #3 when Rogers went down he'd have had 4 weeks to get in shape.
(he's quoted as saying he "works out once a week if he has time") Might be serviceable by now. Maybe his arm has finally healed and he might have some of that zip on his passes he had early on. At least Flynn has football instincts and can navigate a pocket and keep his eyes downfield. If he had Hundleys physical tools he'd be a starter in this league.

HankScorpio's picture

Yeah, Flynn never had much of an arm to begin with. So it would definitely be duck season in GB. That has a low probability of success, too.

it shows how bad Hundley has been that I'm even entertaining the notion.

Zaphod Dog's picture

You have to look no further than the Rams to see what removing a moribund strategy and staff will do if the team personnel are reasonably talented. I think the packers have a good core but lack depth in many areas. TT really made it clear the game has passed him by when he passed up on TJ Watt. He's reached the point where he believes his own press and no longer questions his own actions. Promote Gutekinst to President and CEO. Promote Eliot Wolf to GM and get a fresh Coaching staff with a real defensive coordinator. MM is a decent coach but he needs a new venue. I think he could be the tonic that finally fixes the Browns.

Thegreatreynoldo's picture

I agree that the new coaches improved the Rams. So did their GM.

The Rams signed LT Whitworth to big money despite his 35 years, and OC John Sullivan, which has helped propel Gurley from an 885 yard rusher to being on pace for 1,267 yds & 13 rushing TDs. Their presence hasn’t hurt the development of Goff, either.

*WR. Rams signed Robert Woods from Buffalo. He has 47 Rec and 703 yards, sports a 15.0 yds/catch average, and is on pace for 1125 yards. They also traded for Sammy Watkins. Despite his foibles, he is a deep threat. He has 408 yds and sports a 17.0 yds per catch average. He’s on pace for 653 yards. Then they drafted Cooper Kupp (much coveted by draft gurus) and he has 481 yards, and is on pace for 770 yards. This has made Tavon Austin and Pharoah Cooper non-factors despite appearing in every game this season, and Mike Thomas a healthy scratch 8 times. They have 100 receiving yards between the three of them.

So new coaches plus 2 new starting OL, and 2 new WRs, a new starting CB, new starting safety, and a new starting OLB (Conner Barwin).

4zone's picture

Why have Callahan on the team if you're not even going to consider playing him, even after a train wreck like the last 4 weeks?

dobber's picture

Because the minute you put Hundley on the bench, he's done. You can't put him back out there unless Callahan gets killed...so you have to be awfully sure when you pull that plug and be prepared to bring in another QB. Look at Buffalo with their Tyrod Taylor fiasco yesterday...if that didn't blow up in their faces...

I don't know how much more sure we can get, though.

Zaphod Dog's picture

I see what you mean - it's tough when teams bounce back and forth between qb's like the Broncos and Browns are doing now. Still, it's pretty clear that Hundley is struggling. I would have had no problem with MM pulling Hundley at the 4th turnover and handing it over to Callahan. He could have chalked that up to "searching for a spark" and go back to Hundley against Pittsburgh if he wanted to. Or if Callahan did spark then ride the hot hand. Nothing is lost. Wish they had kept Taysom Hill. He really seemed to have some good instincts. Reminded me a bit of Flynn with a better arm.

pooch's picture

Stockholders need to make some nosie at annual stockholder meeting at Lambeau field instead of kissing Murphys ass withh there light applause

Lphill's picture

It's over guys the season is done let Hundley play it out , no way Aaron comes back , maybe we finally get a decent defensive pick in next years draft . That's all we can hope for.

Since '61's picture

Game Balls: Clinton dix and the end of the game.

Lame Calls: MM - WTF with game plan!?
Hundley - First throw the football! Second, throw it to the guys in the gold helmets. Third, Get a Grip out there!!!
Entire offensive effort, it was just pitiful.

The Pittsburgh game is looking beyond ugly.

Thanks, Since '61

TommyG's picture

Fans at Lambeau did the wave? No, those weren’t fans, they were tourists who came to experience Packerland. They were the same ones booing a few minutes later, and who walked out in droves before the final whistle.

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