Point of Veau: Collins Should Thank His Lucky Stars & Not Complain

Nick Collins saying he doesn't get respect is asinine. According to evidence from at least one observer, he may be overrated.

A recent post by Kevin Seifert of ESPN.com grabbed my attention. It was about Nick Collins' listing as the third-ranked safety in ESPN's positional power rankings.

But the post also referenced comments made to ESPNMilwaukee.com's Jason Wilde before the Super Bowl about Collins feeling disrespected.

“I get no respect around here,” Collins is quoted as saying, as noted with a smile. “But it’s OK. Everybody will see me one day.”

He continued, “I don’t appreciate (being less recognizable than Troy Polamalu), but I accept it. Like I said before, one day somebody will recognize that I’m a three-time Pro Bowler. But it’s all good. I might need to change my image. I need to do something. But I’m me. I love what I do. So I’m going to stick to what I know and what I’ve had a lot of success doing.”

Maybe Collins has changed his tune. After all, these comments were made before the Super Bowl in which he returned an interception for a touchdown in front of the largest television audience in history.

But pardon me while I step back for moment.

Really, Mr. Collins? Are you really playing the disrespect card?

As Collins noted, he is a three-time Pro Bowler, an award voted upon by fans, coaches and his peers.

He was just voted as the third-ranked safety in ESPN's power rankings.

Before the 2010 season, he received a long-term contract extension worth $23.4 million on top of the tender he received before that.

That's not respect?

Does he want to be ranked ahead of Polamalu and Ed Reed, a ranking that he may not deserve? Because there's evidence he's nowhere near their caliber of player.

In an article for the upcoming Maple Street Press Packers Annual, Vince Verhei of Football Outsiders has some pretty biting words of criticism on Collins.

"The Green Bay safeties were nothing to write home about in 2010," writes Verhei. "Part of that was obviously the injuries that ravaged the strong safety spot, but free safety Nick Collins was also his usual barely-visible self. He finished 44th among safeties with just 24 total stops, run and pass––or, fewer than Woodson had against run or pass. If Woodson is the second coming of Ronde Barber, then Collins is the second coming of Deon Grant. Take that as you will."

The stat referenced to as "stops" is one created by Football Outsiders as consisting of "

sacks, interceptions, passes defensed, and tackles on short completions" against the pass and "plays that prevent meaningful yardage towards a first down" against the run.

For comparison sake, Woodson had 30 Run Stops and 33 Pass Stops last season, what some have thought be a down year for the veteran cornerback.

Now, whether or not you agree with the Verhei's statement that Collins was "his usual barely-visual self" or not is another matter. I wouldn't have gone that far.

But the statistical evidence that ranked him 44th among safeties in the "Stops" category is a little eye opening for a player that started all 16 games last year.

The point being is that for earning three Pro Bowls, being considered one of the top three safeties in the game and the Packers showing how much they value your services by paying you tens of millions of dollars, saying you're disrespected comes off as slightly arrogant or perhaps juvenile. Maybe both.

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Comments (42)

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coreyb's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:03 pm

I dont know that I agree with FB Outsiders- its a stat but our Secondary was Tops so it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's a team defense in the TRUE sense of the word.

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Hands's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:28 pm

You don't see Collins blitzing or trying to make a play in the backfield. Collins strength is that he has speed and works in Caper's system to a T. I'm not sure a lot of teams want to try and challenge Collins regardless of FB Outsiders stats.

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Bearmeat's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:32 pm

Agreed Hands. Collins' strength is his speed. His is the catch all in the back of the defense - like Ed Reed. Don't get me wrong - he's not as good as Reed (although he stays healthier).

IMO if Burnett comes along nicely next year, that will give Collins a chance to do more than just play center field. Not too many balls are just lobbed up for grabs to pick off in the NFL...

That being said - Nick Collins is paid to play football. Not talk. Hearing his asinine comments is not welcome.

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PkrNboro's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:47 pm

That being said – Nick Collins is paid to play football. Not talk. Hearing his asinine comments is not welcome...

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perhaps, I could take that a step further and suggest that he S.T.F.U.

ProBowler? Super Bowl champ? what more does he want?

I don't think we got much from him the first two years.
Didn't Woodson have to teach him how to study film?

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Oppy's picture

May 06, 2011 at 01:08 pm

Woodson is a very, very crafty professional. It's been well documented that he taught the entire secondary in GB how he breaks down film and puts what he sees towards production on the field.

I hardly see how you can use that against Nick Collins.

For that matter, using that exact line of reasoning, Charles Woodson must be a chump, because: Didn't Rod Woodson have to teach him how to study film? Charles is on record stating Rod taught him what's what in breaking down film and game prep...

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Oppy's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:50 pm

I agree 100%. If you're a professional football player, you're no longer entitled to share your personal opinion. You might not even be entitled to HAVE a personal opinion, but that's for the courts to decide. But definitely, no right to voice it, that much is clear.

Its a good thing all of us posters here on CHTV and the rest of the web are professional personal opinion voicers, so we can maintain our right to express our thoughts in a public forum.

If we don't crack down on Nick Collins, what's next? Professional metal workers and professional secretaries speaking their mind?

Can't have that.

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MarkinMadison's picture

May 06, 2011 at 01:09 pm

LOL.

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PackersRS's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:31 pm

Didn't that bum Collins held out of camp? He had some lame-ass personal excuse or something, like his father dying or whatever...

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IanHanley75's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:45 pm

One of the reasons Collins was feeling disrespected is that the NFL Network ranked rookie Eric Berry ahead of him on their list of top 100 players.

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Oppy's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:58 pm

This is what I was going to post, before I got sidetracked quipping about football players trading away their right to free speech when they go pro.

Right on, there was plenty of twitter banter amongst NFL players, packers and otherwise, about what a slap in Collin's face it was that Eric Berry was placed ahead of him on NFL's Top 100 PLayers of 2011 list... A list that current NFL players and coaches, and ONLY current players and coaches, voted on.

Take what you will from that.

Should be noted that the Collins' comments that Brian has posted in this article were apparently from last season. I would agree, pro bowls or not, that Nick Collins wasn't known nationally as the pick machine he had been from the 2008-2010 seasons. Packers fan voting probably put him over the top in pro bowl voting, and I could be mistaken but I believe in one of those probowls he was an alternate promoted to start, not an outright starter by vote tally.

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PackersRS's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:34 pm

They don't disclosure how it's voted. It's got to be a pretty bad process, if they end up grading Berry ahead of Collins...

Aaron Rodgers reportedly doesn't crack the top 10 either.

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LED's picture

May 06, 2011 at 12:47 pm

I tend to agree with Brian..although I don't have much of an issue with what Nick said.

What I haven't seen mentioned is the effect Woodson plays on Nick's exposure. The Packers defense doesn't run through Nick as the Steelers D largely runs through Troy and perhaps how the Packers D runs through Wood.. And the fact Woodson is basically an in the box safety who can cover a bit further dilutes Nick's exposure. So in the end, Nick is essentially being compared to not only the cream of the crop at safety around the league, but also his own teammate who one could argue (although in a twisted context maybe) might play the position better than he does..in regards to playing up and being the centerpiece of the defense. And let's be honest.. Collins simply isn't that marketable. What is he expecting?

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Oppy's picture

May 06, 2011 at 01:04 pm

....Let's not forget, Nick Collins is a playmaker at Safety.

His athleticism is extremely rare at his position; he is capable of breaking on balls all the way across the field and making plays on them. This doesn't go unnoticed in NFL film study rooms across the league.

Simply put, opposing OC's and QB's keep close tabs on where Nick Collins is and where they put the ball. This is going to have an effect on Nick's stats.

One thing working against Nick this year was dropped interception opportunities. By game 5 in 2010, Collins probably could have had a legit shot at having 6 picks under his belt, but his hands were made of lead early on for some reason.

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PackersRS's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:40 pm

How many times was Collins targeted? I do agree that he was lacking in some plays, in the running game where he takes a bad angle and in some passing plays, like the NFCC game, where both him and Woodson simply gave up on the play.

But that's one thing that FO doesn't take into consideration, which makes their stats dumb. Collins is almost never targeted, because he's rarely out of place.

We know that very well. We've watched Darren Sharper get torched over and over again, and I'm pretty sure his "stop" stats was pretty high.

Hell, even Collins in 08 was a "give and take" player. He made a lot of ints, but he allowed a number of big plays.

Quite frankly, Collins since 09 is, in fact, the 3rd best safety in the league. His big plays have diminished, but he's one of the most reliable safeties in the league, and that allows Woodson to freelance a lot more.

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ppabich's picture

May 08, 2011 at 01:39 am

FO takes targets into consideration. The problem isn't the stat it's Verhei. I'm a bit of a FO junkie, and they generally do a good job understanding the shortcomings of their stats. FO also has a lot of good writers, and Verhei is NOT one of them. If you have ESPN insider this link is proof of Verhei's poor understanding of statistical analysis, http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/insider/news/story?id=6056887

But like PackersRS said, targets is the key here. Collins plays the 'center field' free safety, so that means two things: 1) He is generally to far away from the line of scrimmage to make a lot of stops in the run game, and 2) a QB is generally going to throw away from where the deep safety is. If Collins does his job right he won't have to make plays that register a stat.

I would bet that the guy with the fewest amount of stops is Nnamdi Asamuga because he was targeted only 31 times last season. that doesn't mean he is 'non-existent' it means he does his job extremely well.

Collins isn't perfect, but he is REALLY good and he deserves a ton of respect. I don't think he is as good as Reed or Polamalu, but I love the fact he thinks he is. If that pride factor means he is going to work harder and play better then I'm psyched he is arrogant and headstrong.

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MarkinMadison's picture

May 06, 2011 at 01:13 pm

We need to look at the context of his comments too. He's at Super Bowl media day. No one is coming over to his table. He says, "I'm getting no respect around here." Well, HERE was the media day. I have ZERO problem with what he said in that context. Heck, if it helps him get an interception in next year's Super Bowl, he can make the same comment next February and I won't care.

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Oppy's picture

May 06, 2011 at 01:39 pm

Agree completely.

There's too many instances to count where a QB or other offensive player talks about having a chip on their shoulder or not getting the respect they deserve, and they use it to motivate them to perform and prove the haters wrong.

People tend to applaud that attitude. I believe Aaron Rodgers has voiced similar sentiments in the past. Some of the all time greats who were continually getting the nod went right on stating they weren't respected and used it as fuel for achieving and maintaining greatness.

Nick Collins says the same things- while a "noted" smile, no less- and he's somehow viewed as stepping over the line?

Ridiculous. I'll take an entire roster of dissatisfied prowbowlers with a chip on their shoulders, over a team of future HOF all-pros who all realize they are the best and well respected.

That's just me, though.

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NoWayJose's picture

May 06, 2011 at 01:30 pm

"The stat referenced to as "stops" is one created by Football Outsiders as consisting of " sacks, interceptions, passes defensed, and tackles on short completions" against the pass and "plays that prevent meaningful yardage towards a first down" against the run."

In other words, it doesnt account for plays where Collins (1) prevents a pass from being thrown in the first place by being in good position (2) tackles that may not stop a first down, but prevent a touchdown (a FREE SAFETY's bread and butter).

Collins is a stud.

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WoodyG's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:08 pm

Another stat (stops) created by one to support his 'way of thinking' without regard to that player's role in a specific defense .....

BC ...... You've fallen for one of the oldest tricks in the book ..... "Refer to far-fetched created stats to prove your point" ..... BTW, I sure hope your perspective on Collins isn't being unduly influenced by your professional relationship with "Maple Street Press" .....

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Brian Carriveau's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:25 pm

What does my relationship with Maple Street Press have to do with anything? Without context, that almost comes off as insulting. But I'll let you explain.

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WoodyG's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:44 pm

" ...slightly arrogant or perhaps juvenile. Maybe both." .....

Your perspective of Collins based on 'selective evidence' through MSP via FO's is an insult ..... My reference to MSP is only out of curiosity .... It's only an insult if you think it is .....

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Brian Carriveau's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:50 pm

I can tolerate people disagreeing with my opinion. But to suggest my employment might have something to do with it isn't something you thought through very well.

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coreyb's picture

May 06, 2011 at 07:13 pm

Nice Brian

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Cole's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:15 pm

I don't care what they say, Collins makes plays. He would've had like 9 picks if he hadn't have dropped so many. Plus, there was that one that was cancelled out by Morgan Burnett's PI.

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PackersRS's picture

May 06, 2011 at 02:53 pm

I consider myself a stats geek.
But sites like Football Outsiders and Pro Football Focus are ridiculous.

Stats don't show the whole truth. More importantly, they don't show context.

When you utilize stats without context to make an overall argument (e.g. "stops" saying that Collins isn't an elite safety) it loses it's purpose.

Stats are intended to prove a small point. A good TD to INT ratio means the QB doesn't take unnecessary risks and makes good decisions more often that not. It doesn't mean he's a better QB than other.

"Stops" means a safety makes plays. It doesn't show if he's a better safety than others. It doesn't show if he allows many plays, it doesn't show how often he had the opportunity to make plays, or why. Ed Reed had a ton of ints last year, but almost half of them were tipped passes. How does that translates to him being a great defender?

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supersoul's picture

May 06, 2011 at 04:34 pm

This critique of Collins is pretty offensive. Please reconsider your use of the words asinine and juvenile; perhaps saving them for players such as Johnny Jolly or Dez Bryant. I carry a lot of respect for your work Mr. Carriveau, but you're very insulting towards a player who has done nothing but good for the community of Green Bay and who has excelled on the field.

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Brian Carriveau's picture

May 06, 2011 at 04:55 pm

No one is questioning that Collins has been good for the community, and for the most part, I agree that he has excelled on the field. I even said I disagreed with the statement that Collins was his "his usual barely-visible self."

Asinine is hyperbole. But I do feel that Collins' comments that he gets no respect and doesn't "appreciate" it come off as somewhat juvenile. Do you think his comments are justified?

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WoodyG's picture

May 06, 2011 at 05:05 pm

The blog everyone would have appreciated ...

" BC Defends Nick Collins Against Outrageous Claims by Vince Verhei of Football Outsiders "

And it would have been so easy ...

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PackerAaron's picture

May 06, 2011 at 05:48 pm

I agree that the whole "FO" angle was unnecessary.

But only because no one ever follows "Collins is a three time Pro Bowler" with "...in a safety deficient NFC". He's good. He's not great. Everyone thinks he's better than he is. He wants to be regarded as an Ed Reed-type talent - which is absurd.

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WoodyG's picture

May 06, 2011 at 06:40 pm

“I get no respect around here,” Collins is quoted as saying .....
He must be talking about CHTV ....

BTW .... You can delete N. Collins off your list of future CHTV interviews ..... And probably some of his teammates .... I think it's called 'shooting yourself in the foot' ......

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PackerAaron's picture

May 06, 2011 at 07:45 pm

I spoke to his agent at the draft. He loves the site - you know why? Because we don't pander the way you're suggesting here. And its laughable to think Collins - or any Packer player - would refuse to be interviewed because of something that was written on the site. If that were the case, they have insecurity issues far beyond the regular "we get no respect" bullshit every athlete uses.

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WoodyG's picture

May 06, 2011 at 08:58 pm

I'll buy you all a beer the day CHTV & Nick Collins hook up for an interview ..... The 'horses mouth' is always preferred ...(Please, no agents)

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john's picture

May 06, 2011 at 05:39 pm

something not being mentioned with collins is the fact that he played a lot of single high coverage. capers used a log of cover 7 which is single high saftey and man underneath. with the corners and pass rush GB had last year the deep area of the field where collins played over the top wasnt tested that much. he was rarely asked to play near the line or in man to man coverage.

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Jake's picture

May 06, 2011 at 06:28 pm

I think some of us are missing the most important part of this. Say what you want about these comments from Collins (they don't really bother me personally, he's not saying much different than what Rodgers has said in the past; "its ok people don't fully respect my talents yet, i'll show them"). But I like that he's going to have a chip on his shoulder. Keep in mind he's still the 3rd best safety in the league, and he's on our team. And NOW he still wants to up his game more? hell yes I say.

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Damian's picture

May 06, 2011 at 11:31 pm

I don't think there was anything offensive about Collins' comments he's entitled to have an inflated self image like most people do. But I do agree with the criticism of the article. Just seemed too harsh given that we all knew the context in which the comments were made. I would be pissed off also if I was sitting all alone on media day and guys who had accomplished much less in the league were garnering more attention. Love the work everyone does on the site but this article seems unwarranted and out of place.

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Two Jet Winston's picture

May 08, 2011 at 10:19 am

The obvious problem with these stats is that our LBs and CBs played so well last year the the run didn't get to the second level as much and WRs weren't catching the ball against our CBs. What needs to be looked at is how many times Collins missed tackles and got burned on routs or was just not in position.

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Sam's picture

May 08, 2011 at 04:11 pm

Looking at that 100 top players list I've come to the conclusion its a load of crap anyway. There are two left tackles on losing teams ahead of Rodgers and Clay. Jeninnigs and Bowe who had great seasons were also behind eric berry that combined with collins is asinine. Also Tramon was the best pure corner on GB, and he was ranked some 20 spots behind woodson. And some how finley was 72 and, played only 5 games. The list is a joke and I wish collins would just man up and ignore it like everyone else.

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Spiderpack's picture

May 08, 2011 at 05:09 pm

Well I have to stop reading your post b4 finishing it bc I'm getting on a plane in MKE, but I must say that you have to understand Nick Collins and his roots in order to understand his statements. I don't read the same meaning into his words as you do bc I've had many personal friendships with guys of his heritage & upbringing from the south. I would say his comments are not as "loaded" as you've perceived them. His mannerisms suggest otherwise, but he doesn't really mean it that way.

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Nathan Jahnke's picture

May 10, 2011 at 11:35 pm

For the Pro Football Focus prospective, he ranked 13th amongst all safeties(FS and SS), mostly due to his strong play in coverage. He was thrown at 32 times, allowed 12 catches for 285 yards, and only allowed one touchdown.

I would agree stops don't do justice for Collins, as on over 86% of plays, he started the play 8 or more yards away from the line of scrimmage, so you wouldn't expect stops in the run game when you play FS that much. Also in the pass game he has one of the lowest catch % in the league, but a high yards per catch. Therefore he wouldn't have a chance to make many stops in the pass game since he rarely allowed a catch and when he did it tended to be for a bigger play, which wouldn't be considered a stop.

I would also guess any athlete would use the disrespect card when they can just to motivate themselves to improve their play. He can play the card all he wants as long as it helps him get better.

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thepretzelhead on Twitter's picture

May 11, 2011 at 07:59 pm

there are only a certain amount of stops to go around

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j's picture

May 13, 2011 at 12:46 pm

I think he may be surprised how little kudos and soundbites he receives. Woodson,clay, raji and the offense garner so much press,he rarely is mentioned.

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atheist4thecause's picture

May 16, 2011 at 03:46 am

First, you're () (which you really meant to put []) aren't correct. Collins wasn't talking about being more recognizable than Troy Polamalu. He was just talking about being an underrated athlete in general. My evidence that he's right is this page. Look at the disrespect he's receiving on this article along with being called underrated.

That Football Outsiders stat is garbage. Collins doesn't blitz so there go all of those "stops". We have really good CB's so it's hard for him to get a pass defended, and if he does his job right then there won't be passes thrown his way. Collins is generally deep so he isn't going to get those stops on short gains (however a short gain is defined). That really only leaves one stat and that is INT's. Collins had 4 INT's last year plus 1 in the super bowl. Oh, and by the way, that INT just happened to get returned for a TD...but yet Collins is "his usual barely-visible self" in 2010.

Again, I find it interesting that you are quoting this guy and supporting a large part of his claims in an article about how Collins gets enough recognition and respect.

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