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#PackersDaily: McCarthy deserved better

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#PackersDaily: McCarthy deserved better

Earlier this afternoon, I held my daily Packers chat over on our YouTube channel. You can catch the replay below.

Be sure to subscribe to the channel if you'd like to participate in future chats. You can also use the #PackersDaily hashtag on your social media accounts if you'd like to submit a question prior to the start of the chat each day. 

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Fan friendly comments only: off Comments (61) This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.

KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

I see MM was ust interviewed with Patrick and MM was not happy with how the termination was handled. Termination is never good and I appreciate his efforts but MM should have been terminated after 2015 IMO.

KenEllis's picture

McCarthy had Hall of Fame QBs for 13 straight season and got to exactly 1 Super Bowl.

McCarthy hired two of the worst Special Teams Coordinators ever employed by a NFL team in Slocum and Zook.

McCarthy kept Capers on despite year after year of disappointing defensive performances.

I could go on, but regarding the question did McCarthy deserve better?

Nah, but Packer fans sure did.

Richard Smith's picture

There's no good way to fire someone. What was he expecting. Obviously, this is speculation and I'm jsut going off what MM said, but maybe Murphy could have been more conversational and nuanced about it instead of just "hey, were making a change." What I do agree with, however, is getting rid of him when they did. It was over and best to just rip the bandaid off quickly.

Coldworld's picture

Firing is never easy, but in this case, if what MM relates is relatively accurate, it could have been done much better and should have been. The fact of it happening in season is a red herring. It was clear that the era was over. The manner of how it was done should prompt questions if true.

Hawg Hanner's picture

What questions. McCarthy was a beaten man, looked like hell, gained a lot of weight and sagged under the responsibility. Predictably he equated high effort on his part with entitlement to stay. It wasn't working. Coldworld, did you want to continue watching McCarthy waste away? What did you make of his sorry physical appearance? I know Bob McGinn said they should have let him stay but that is McGinn going against the grain as he is always wont to do. What questions do you have or rather what questions could there be? This man had wasted away.

Coldworld's picture

Since I said the fact of it happening isn’t the problem, because it had clearly failed I agree that releasing him when they did makes sense to avoid further downward spirals.

That said, when you release a long term employee for such reasons, there are ways to do it. From the way MM described it (and we only have his perception), if close to accurate, the decusion was not delivered in a thought out, professional manner. We should expect more from Murphy. Remember, the NFL is a tight circle. Departures are common but people re-emerge and know each other. How things are handled affects perceptions for future hires and player recruitment.

croatpackfan's picture

I completely agree with you. People often forget that the way you deal with someone, especially if you fire him, tells you a lot about you, not about the person you fired...

jannes bjornson's picture

Most people don't walk off with an 8M severance package after running a business into the ground. Maybe that's a NFL or Wall Street thing.

croatpackfan's picture

Of course that you will fire a person who is not performing well, or who is "running a business into the ground". You'll never fire someone who are bringing you profits, wins, wealth. Still, the way how you are doing that tells all about you, not about the person you are fire...

Remember, things you are doing tells others about you, not about others...

pooch's picture

He did not he was an arrogant sob that wrecked the team

Nick Perry's picture

Jesus Christ could you be ANY further off?

Richard Smith's picture

Apparently, Rodgers and LeFluer have met, just not as MF has been the coach. MF texted Van Pelt once saying he just saw Rodgers at function and Pelt texted him back saying he was with him. They all hung out for a couple hours. No football talk. Just shooting the shit, apparently.

dblbogey's picture

Firing was mishandled, it should have been done 4 years earlier.

Old School's picture

McCarthy Deserved Better?

I think a lot of things happen that are neither deserved nor wanted.

Can Rodgers Win this season, while McCarthy rests? Can McCarthy take another team to the Super Bowl?
Time, as always, will tell....

michaelturi's picture

I am not the least bit upset with how it was handled.

michaelturi's picture

I think MM could have and should have done far more with the Packers and Rodgers. This should have been a several year run at the Super Bowl. Instead of just barely making the playoffs and losing in increasingly awful ways. Special teams were a joke and everyone knew it except MM. Game management and adapting to what the other team was doing was non-existent. No scheme changes at halftime. Same old run, run, pass, kick.

Since '61's picture

Let's not forget all those Hall of Fame and Pro-Bowl players MM had to work with each season, especially after 12 - 15 starters went on IR every season.

It is a little difficult to adapt when the secondary, OL and receiving corps is made up of guys who were not even in the league when the season began never mind on the team. Adapting wasn't non-existent but an NFL quality roster often was. MM wasn't Lombardi but he did well with the UFDAs and low end draft picks TT gave him, not to mention the busts at #1 picks for a few years like Datone Jones, Nick Perry, Sherrod (injured) and a few others.

It's not all on MM. TT and Murphy are also culpable in the team's decline. Thanks, Since '61

Lare's picture

Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around. But McCarthy may have done much better with the players he was given to work with if he had hired better assistant coaches & coordinators than Capers, Philbin, Slocum, Zook, Cignetti, Moss, Campen, Raih etc.

Old School's picture

Blame? For teams that won the Super Bowl in 2010, had a franchise best record of 15-1 the next year, went to the Championship game in 2014 and again in 2016?

I wish I'd get blamed for stuff like that.

The Thompson/McCarthy/Rodgers Era is over in Green Bay, and only Rodgers remains. If he plays like an MVP this year, it'll look like McCarthy was the problem. Or maybe he's not so good and he gets older and gets hurt. Time will Tell.

Coldworld's picture

I’d say MM suffered from excess loyalty and that TT tended the same way, which meant MM didn’t get the push he may have needed perhaps to be more ruthless.

Ultimately though, a weak roster kills coaches and schemes. Our roster definitely consistently declined. I think it eventually collapsed the pile. There is blame all round. Gute was relatively junior before all the FO departures, so i am not sure how much is on him, but the end of the TT and MM eras was definitely mishandled over a period of years.

To whom should we look for responsibility? The cop out is to look at the departed. Easy, partially true, but that yields no lessons. Two thirds of the troika that ran the Packers during this period still do. If they were also partly culpable we would be wise not to fall into the trap of focusing all of the blame on the departed. It’s the ones still with us that pose the critical ongoing questions.

Hawg Hanner's picture

Why not say Murphy's name if you are targeting him. There is this particular breed that despises Murphy although he has the best background and qualifications of anyone out there. What more remains to be said other than "I'm sorry Mike we're pulling the plug." McCarthy is an idiot to expect a termination can be handled in a way he's going to feel good about it. The "trap of blaming the departed" in no trap at all when it is true that Thompson and McCarthy blew it and lost whatever proficiency they once had and enjoyed.

Coldworld's picture

Murphy and Ball if you want names, in that order. I didn’t because my point was intended to be (1) that there was a long standing decline that involved more than MM or TT, and (2) that as long as we focus on only part of the group responsible we are not going to get to the heart of the matter.

Ultimately, what I care about is making sure we don’t repeat the mistakes and that we don’t damage the Packers brand inside and outside of the NFL.

Demon's picture

If you never want to be disappointed Old School just keep aiming low. Back into the playoffs as a sorry little wildcard team. Then watch the best QB on the planet go to work.

Your constant support of MM and Terrible Ted is laughable. If they were half as good as you would have us believe, maybe the Pack is the dominant team the last 15 years instead of the Patriots.

Get a grip buddy. The Packs upper management wasted the career of not 1 but 2 HOF QB's. But the best part of it is you are happy as a lark about it.

Keep aiming low! It must have served you so well up to this point.

Old School's picture

Aim Low? We made the playoffs every year. Won the division several times. Made it to the Championship game 4 times. Won a Super Bowl. A franchise best 15-1.

The best QB on the planet? Not last year. Not 2017. He hasn’t even been the best in the division the last two years.

Been a fan of the team since the 60s,and let me tell you.....the McCarthy years were a damn good stretch for this organization. I’m sorry you can’t see that. It must suck to be a fan of a team that you think sucks.

Demon's picture

How happy do you think the fans of the Bills are? Do you think they sit back and revell in the greatness they enjoyed in the 90"s? 4 straight trips to the AFC title game and 4 straight trips to the SB. I guess it doesnt matter that all ended in defeat and each defeat was worse than the last.

4 trips to the NFC title game in 10 years. I win 3 losses and each defeat got worse and more embarassing. One thing that was always a constant with Big Mac was his creativeness. He was VERY creative in finding new ways to lose a game.

McCarthy was a buffoon end of story. If he feels it couldnt have been handled worse it shows how unintelligent he really is. I would think it would be worse if he had not received pay for the upcoming season after he was fired.

It's a shame that the Packers were such a mess for more than 20 years before Ron Wolfe arrived. It is because of that fans like Old School and his cronies are so easily satisfied. I suppose he was one leading the chants " we're not the worst' in those years when GB finished only above Tampa in the old NFC central. Good on you buddy! Keep aiming low!

Samson's picture

Tornado
You have to understand that OSchool has to live up to his moniker. He believes everything that happened 'yesterday' is better than today or will be tomorrow. -- It's sad how some people are stuck in time.

tincada's picture

"Same old run, run, pass, kick." I guess I missed the "run" thingie.

MarkinMadison's picture

Gaglianone? Uh, no. NO. 10-17 (58%) last year. Take off those rose colored glasses!

Starr57's picture

Funny how the guy that screwed this whole thing up is getting none of the blame.

Mark Murphy keeps throwing people under the bus and getting away with it

Reading the article, Mikes wife new things weren't right after 2016.

Murphy should have blew things up after 2016, instead he demotes Ted, realligns the power structure, and in the end threw Mike under the bus when things went bad.

I always read about how another year of Aaron Rodgers career has been wasted.
Since football is the ultimate team game, I disagree with that statement.

However what Murphy did by not making wholesale changes after 2016 was waste a year OF THE ENTIRE TEAM.

Tundraboy's picture

Not the greatest fan of Murphy, but the way I look at it is, he gave McCarthy one more year than he deserved, which to me was some token and recognition for what he accomplished earlier. After the team's performance and MM's coaching structures, changes , and non changes since 2014, did he really expect to be staying much longer. How shocking. If there ever was a case of the writing's on the wall, this is it. Can we get back to the draft?

haevs's picture

I appreciate all MM did in his tenure...but lets face it... whem AR went down in 2017, our season was over...he had Hundly for 3 yrs prior and we were really bad... preseason, qb meetings, etc....I said to many, we will see how good of a coach he is without AR....He was stubborn, couldn't change and adjust... Andy Reid did, etc....not MM fault, but he could not adjust to the times...hard to be 10+ yrs unless you are Belechick......
Not trying to pily on, just time for a change, much like the GM but a couple years too late.......

Qoojo's picture

As long as "deserved better" means, fire earlier, then I agree.

KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

All this just shows you how bad things truly was in GB. A billion dollar organization and how do things deteriorate this badly?

MM is posturing for new position next year. Poor coach for several years. A physical wreck and no accountability and players like Bostick and others not following instructions. MM making multi-million dollar salary annually and he feels he was mistreated. WOW!

I do think Murphy should not be left off the hook. Not because of how he fired MM but because he stood on sidelines for years when he should have fired TT and MM years earlier and the Packers have suffered.

Thegreatreynoldo's picture

Oh how the narrative changes. I thought Murphy was MM's personal protector who stripped Gute of the authority to fire MM? Now Murphy, a long-time AD who has hired and fired folks over the years can't do it properly and is the bad guy?

I can't fathom the notion that suggests MM deserved to finish the season. Upon what principle is that based? It is not like he won't continue to get his paychecks, and indeed, north of $6.5M for 2019 as well.

MM's interview simply confirms that he thought he was entitled (and some folks agree) to special treatment due to past performance. The same argument was made for TT. He was complacent enough to believe the organization would comply.

It is good to believe in yourself, but not if it means you can't honestly and objectively self-scout. It's not that MM didn't put in some new route concepts, but the basic thrust of the offense and his overall concept of how to run a team did not change.

It will be interesting to see how LaFleur performs, and how MM performs if he gets a new gig.

Coldworld's picture

I don’t get any of that narrative. Murphy MMs personal protector? It seems to me like there are many who don’t want to face up to the fact that two thirds of the ultimate leadership, or half if you include coaching as well as roster determination, are still here.

It’s the oldest trick in the book for leaders to blame the departed, but does anyone really think the decline was all down to poor coaching? If it was wider then falling for the narrative that it was all TT and MM is allowing oneself to be sucker punched.

MM will get over it. The objection isn’t sympathy for him, it’s about not seeing through the chaff to understand the true causes and learn the necessary lessons for the organization and our team on the field.

Rossonero's picture

You nailed it Reynoldo: MM had a sense of entitlement.

As someone who's let people go in my professional life and been laid off myself, there is never a "perfect" time to let someone go. It's a painful decision, but usually the right one for both parties.

We've seen it with NFL players, too. I remember when the Bears low-balled Brian Urlacher in the twilight of his career. Urlacher was offended. He wanted "I love you" money for what he had done in the PAST, but his current performance was no longer elite -- he could barely run anymore. Everyone could see this, but himself.

I can only imagine that being unemployed hopefully has given McCarthy some time to reflect on the mistakes he made. He's not all to blame like Since61 said -- TT and Mark Murphy also made plenty of mistakes along the way too.

We are all at-will employees at the end of the day in the private industry. Anyone can voluntarily leave or involuntarily be told to leave. McCarthy, for all of his many years in Green Bay, perhaps thought over time he was above that rule, but he is not. He's just like the rest of us, and perhaps, with a pretty large ego like many NFL coaches have, his pride got hurt. He was held accountable -- finally -- and it stung. That's just life.

I like how Anthony Hopkins said at the end of the movie The Edge: We're all put to the test....never at the point at which we prefer."

KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

TGR,
Well said! Very well stated!

ballark's picture

I understand the point of organization vs blogger. But fans questioning or even acknowledging your inconsistency get insulted by you and are encouraged to leave? Give me a break.

egbertsouse's picture

Poor Mike McCarthy. He walks away a multi-millionaire. Boo-hoo.

D Ernie's picture

He should have been booted out when he fd up that Seatlle game steeling sure defeat from the jaws of victory.
When you think of the two hall of fame QBs he had under his wing and only a couple of SB's really> What other coach gets that chance and screws it all up?

ballark's picture

McCarthy Deserved Better?

"About once a week, a meeting would start up and McCarthy was MIA. Players weren't quite sure where he was while, for example, an assistant coach would run the team's final prep on the Saturday before a game. Eventually, word leaked that McCarthy, the one calling plays on game day, was up in his office getting a massage during those meetings. One player had the same massage therapist, and she let it slip that McCarthy would sneak her up a back stairway to his office while the rest of the team prepared for that week's opponent."

Mojo's picture

ballark is referencing Tyler Dunnes BR report on the dynamics between McCarthy and Rodgers.

Must reading for any Packer fan. You can believe what you want, but I do believe it gives a peek behind the curtain and a good notion as to why GB has won only one SB in the Rodgers era.

Personally I'm pissed that such a great opportunity has been squandered.

ballark's picture

Yup. 1,000% required reading for any Packers fan.

One thing that has consistently bothered me is the notion that McCarthy was/is a QB "guru". Dunne's piece alludes to McCarthy taking credit for some of Montana's career (he worked with Joe in Kansas City). Then in GB, under McCarthy, we saw an undisciplined Favre and a Rodgers he couldn't control. Even as an evaluator of talent, when McCarthy was in SF, he passed on Rodgers in favor of Alex Smith. And then in GB, McCarthy had numerous seasons to groom and evaluate Hundley. When it came time for Hundley to take center stage, the QB looked so woefully lost and unprepared, you had to wonder, as a fan, what was going on those many years for the game plan to evaporate entirely with Hundley under center. This, to me, was one of the biggest tells on McCarthy. He was never the QB guru he claimed to be. Not in terms of coaching OR evaluation.

hobowilly's picture

excellent points, Mr. B Park. And, i'd have to agree with, "Predictably he equated high effort on his part with entitlement to stay". The NFL is an adult league and "a business"....yes, i am one to believe MM squandered going the whole way and honestly, i'd have been happy with back to back yrs going to the SB and losing, but GB doesn't lose too often when it gets to the big dance. At least they'd have had the opportunity to bring Vince's trophy back to where it belongs. I'm energized with GB's last two mgmt moves, Gutey & MLF and truly believe we'll get back to where we were during AR's prime, a dangerous team....defense wins SB's it has been said and i reckon Gutey & Co are going to get us back there in short order! Lastly, AR is still relevant!

RCPackerFan's picture

It was a good reading. A lot of good things and a lot of things that connected dots that we kind of already knew.

Also kind of explains why this last year it just fell apart.

That being said in the article there was a lot of unnamed sources with opinions and facts, and a lot of talk from Jennings/Finley who have proven that they have a biased opinion against Rodgers.
My question with the unnamed sources is do they have a biased opinion or do they have an axe to grind? Those things I don't know so I have to take their words with a grain of salt.

I also question where was Murphy at? He should have never let this get to this point. And if its been this bad for this long why wasn't McCarthy let go a year ago when they were making changes anyways?

Hopefully though, with McCarthy now gone, hopefully Rodgers will be all in with LaFleur and things will improve!

Personally I think hearing/seeing a lot of these things Rodgers will be as motivated as ever to prove himself. Expect a big year!

RCPackerFan's picture

double post. Haven't had this in a while.

Continued thoughts.
A lot of talk was from Jennings and Finley.
But Ryan Grant seemed to talk about some good things with Rodgers.

I'd personally like to hear more from other former players that have played there. Cobb, Lang, Sitton, Nelson, whoever else that can add their views on it.

Coldworld's picture

I read it as typical symptoms of an organization without proper leadership. If true it is a searing indictment of Murphy presiding over a TR regime that was no longer TT and an organization that allowed that sort of BS simply because it was going OK at the time. No wonder it fell off a cliff.

KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

Ballpark,
Wow if true!

Also sad!

KnockTheSnotOutOfYou's picture

Wow if true!

Also sad!

sam1's picture

From reading I have done lately it appears Rodgers and his big fat ego is what has gotten in the way over the years with the Packers and not McCarthy! If true then probably the wrong person has been blamed and fired!

ballark's picture

Though Rodgers carries some of the burden for the team's success and his relationships inside the locker room, that's not at all how I read Dunne's piece.

RCPackerFan's picture

Lets just say that this article doesn't paint a good looking picture of Rodgers, McCarthy, Thompson and honestly even Murphy.

Coldworld's picture

Culture is set at the top. Rodgers has foibles as do we all. What I read is that the leadership allowed all concerned to slip into bad habits. Definition of a terribly poorly run organization. If that really is what was going in as early as 2007, thank goodness we got one Super Bowl!

Guam's picture

Couldn't agree more Coldworld. Murphy has largely gotten a pass for this mess and he is ultimately the accountable person for the Packer organization. I have a suspicion that when things were going well early in the TT/MM era, Murphy heavily involved himself in the business side of the Packers and got caught not paying enough attention when things headed south on the football side. Not an excuse - he is the CEO and should have been watching much more closely.

It will be very interesting to see how the Packer Board handles Murphy going forward. He certainly should be on a very short leash regarding the on-field product.

sam1's picture

I the readings I have done go beyond and before the Dunne piece as well!

ILPackerBacker's picture

Constantly amazed that anyone could have watch the carpet bagging Murphy with Favre, with the fail mary, with allowing ted to stay and NEVER review him does not already have a dismal view of Muphy.

It is almost like listening to how OJ could not have done it because he was so nice to people while running in airports.

stockholder's picture

Seems there just were to many egos in GB. Bletcher report has more. But why isn't anybody bringing up Brett Favre? Seems he should have a nice interview coming into all this.

Coldworld's picture

A President’s job is to prevent exactly this type of distinction. Why does he still have a job if this is even half true?

BoCallahan's picture

Nagler opened with a welcome and love for all the likes and dislikes and then did a 180 and went off on a guy for a comment and questioned his mental capacity, then told him to get off the site.
Someone got under his skin in a hurry.

Doug Niemczynski's picture

He should have gotten RID of Dom Capers 2 years after GB won the SuperBowl for starters.

Southside's picture

Packer fans deserved better. Big Mike looked like he was on cruise control for a number of years. What a waste of time he was. Thrilled that he got canned. He was an arrogant ass. I liked the way they did it. He needed to be humbled.

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