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A Few Thoughts on the Endless Chaos

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A Few Thoughts on the Endless Chaos

We’re backed up against our own end zone.
In my 30 years, I’ve never come close to a comparable feeling of division, chaos, and hopelessness. I should add, I'm the embodiment of privilege. 
I have no family in Mexico, where a 7.1 magnitude earthquake left cities ravaged and claimed hundreds of lives, including many already living in destitution. I have no family in Houston and along the Golf Coast. My extended family in Florida were spared significant damage when Irma tore through. In my circle, none are suffering in the aftermath of Maria in Puerto Rico. The few people I know who were in Las Vegas last night have all reported they’re safe, and confused like the rest of us. 
Stick to sports, right? 
You mean the same sport that left Packer fans breathless after Danny Trevathan catapulted his helmet, the tip of the spear, onto a helpless Davante Adams, hurling his mouthguard into the air and his teammates and brothers into a panic? There’s no escape. And we’re not entitled to escape, either. 
We’re in this together. And we’re backed up against our own end zone. 
The worst thing we can do now is clam up, shut down or bicker about the appropriate venue in which to communicate, articulate, demonstrate, protest, argue, disrupt, unify, rectify, scream, shout, pray, hug or shed tears. More than anything, we need to listen—to escape the static for long enough to really hear each another. 
Maybe I should have said that Aaron Jones could be a great fit for the Packers’ spread offense. Or that Morgan Burnett is the Packers’ MVP through four games. Or that McCarthy called one of his best games in years against the Bears. Those are appropriate distractions from the overwhelming insanity. I’ll get there, soon I’m sure. Couldn’t do it today.  
Now play us off, Tom Petty: 
“Wherever you are tonight
I wish you the best of everything, in the world
And I hope you found
Whatever you were looking for”
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Brewcity's picture

That was downright poetic, David. Well done.

Lphill's picture

With all the despair and tragedy around us it just makes the player protesters look more stupid then ever , Michael Bennants story was proved false about police brutality , yet it continues , they need to stop it , millionaires who feel discriminated against . Just stop it .

Finwiz's picture

Yes - just stop it now. 458 people pumped full of lead yesterday, imagine being there, or someone in their family.
Those are people that have something to be upset about in life.
Forever scarred - thousands, in about 10 minutes.
Millionaires living the American dream are not among those with distress.

CAG123's picture

Yeah because all this was about Michael Bennett? People like you have helped completely change the narrative of what these protests were about. We've moved all the way to millionaires being discriminated against now? SMH some people just don't want to get it. Just stop it.

Barfarn's picture

Without protest, followed by the most violent protest of all, the US would still be a British colony. Don’t be King George, who closed his eyes, threw tantrums and pretended the protest was not legitimate.

In 2003, Bennett’s attorney secured $11M for 119, that’s 119 plaintiffs against the Oakland PD. “The Riders” brutalized suspects, planted evidence, filed false reports, etc. Whistleblower Keith Batt, a rookie fresh out of academy, heroically did the work of a real cop. But, his fellow cops didn’t praise his sense of honor and justice; they ostracized, threatened and intimidated him [Resulting in a $625K emotional damage award].

Interestingly, in May Officer Batt shot Shannon Edward Estill, he activated his body cam before the confrontation.

The LVMPD stated it had to review 126 police dash and body cam videos of the alleged shooting and this is all they got that portends to show the appropriateness of their behavior? 126 videos! What is that 30-40+ cars and/or 80+ cops? All these cops had their cams on …but oops, the one guy, the one effing cop, that could prove Bennett’s a liar had his off. What an amazing coincidence, simply amazing. The great Malcolm Nance teaches us that “coincidences take an awful lot of planning.”

The Chicago PD has paid out $662M in police brutality claims [2004-2015]. In large metro areas, this stuff is the rule not the exception. WAKE-UP!

packergal's picture

I am interested in the Packers. The players talents/skills, how they line up, whom they block, whom they beat and why. I am not interested in Aaron Rodgers or others using football to lecture me on social justice issues. I choose my important issues, my concerns, my charitable causes, my decisions to participate or not. Play the game and play by the rules of the NFL which require EVERY PLAYER to stand for the anthem, with right hand over heart and helmet in left hand-- and not to engage in sideline distractions--of any kind!

dnicholson's picture

That's not a requirement by the NFL. That's simply incorrect.

jeremyjjbrown's picture

It's easy to call people selfish and stupid if you haven't experienced what they have or make no attempt to understand.

People in this country need to grow up, stop being obsessed with their "personal opinion" and learn how to listen. We have people denegrating NFL players' as selfish. How many of them even bothered to read Kaepernick's reasoning or explaination about how much respect he has for Veterans?Conversely, how many liberals called white middle class folks who where suffering under the current economy rascists and dismissed their issues?

So just stop it.

DThomas's picture


The protest has evolved into something else for some, but be careful asking people to read what Kaepernick has said and done. "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." Not much nuance there, is there? He apparently believes the entire country oppresses black people. Wearing shirts honoring Castro and Che Guevara shows his ignorance regarding the issue he's protesting: How do you suppose dissenters in Castro's Cuba were and are treated? Also wearing socks displaying cops as pigs is another gross generalization/exaggeration. Nothing wrong with trying to raise awareness, but aiming the protest at the flag and the anthem was/is foolish and counterproductive.

flackcatcher's picture

He was not the first, nor will he be the last, to be drunk and caught on video. Probably violated some clause in his contract, and things just sprung out from there. Bet his parents and bother ripped him up and down for it. Too bad Bennett didn't man up a take responsibility. It would have save him and us a lot of heart burn.

lou's picture

Our family has 3 generations of combat decorated Marines (WWII-Vietnam-Kosovo) the NFL difference in VALUES has been made perfectly clear when an NFL Owner/Coach/Player has/would disrespect an NFL executive or NFL Official they would be publicly reprimanded and/or suspended and would pay fines averaging in the thousands of dollars. But disrespect the American Flag and the Veterans that have given their lives for it has become "a justifiable right".

Below is the text of my recent email to Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson. These players have every possible mass communication outlet at their beck and call, political office holders and entertainment celebrity contacts, huge financial resources and an entire off season to devote to any AGENDA they wish.

Barfarn's picture

Our boys and girls and their families have not sacrificed their lives, bodies and mental well being for a piece of cloth.

They sacrifice to preserve the liberty, freedom, the rule of law and the peaceful transition of power that is America.

Every Marine I know respects the RIGHTS of Americans.

flackcatcher's picture

We defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights. From all enemies foreign and domestic. The Flag embodies those ideals. So to many, it is not just a piece of cloth. The Flag signals that we as citizens stand behind those ideals, and beliefs. So when some one spits, pisses, burns, or even takes a knee, folks are going to be more than a tad upset. What makes this country special, is as imperfect as we are, we try to act on those beliefs and ideals. And more often than not, we succeed. I wish more people would try to understand that, instead of wrapping themselves up in whatever pet cause they have at the moment.

Barfarn's picture

Who decides what constitutes a “pet cause?” King George ignored the pet cause of the Colonists; most of America had no regard for MLK’s pet causes; the pet causes to stop McCarthyism; the pet causes of labor; etc.

In 1930’s Germany, a democratic and moral people ignored the pet cause of Jews among others. They were distracted by a mustached megalomaniac yelling “Make Germany Great Again” and nationalistically embraced fealty to symbolism over LIVING to secure German democratic principles for ALL.

Ignoring the Jewish “pet cause” ended up bad for the Jews; but what is often forgotten is the cost to the Germans was the loss of their country to the megalomaniac’s oligarchy. And they’d have NEVER gotten it back if Hitler was satisfied with securing only Germania.

This Nation is the greatest and strongest [At least defined by Western principles] in the history of the world; but never EVER forget that the one force that can end America is Americans...Americans that forget or refuse to LIVE to secure freedom and liberty for ALL.

flackcatcher's picture

'Pet Causes' mmm.... Take my statement out of context and moving the goal posts (football reference. this a sports blog after all :0 ) The second you use 'western principles' you DQ yourself from this thread. Trying to sneak Marxist Leninist theory in the back door is bad form. Besides, no one, not fans, not the owners, and above all not the government at any level did anything to stop the players from mounting their protest. The players first amendment rights were respected and protected. In return, the fans made clear their displeasure to the protesting players, all without violence, black shirts and masks. The United States Constitution and Bill of Rights in action. The principals and ideals that I and others protect with our lives every day. Pretty neat, right.

dnicholson's picture

Let's agree, a devastating hurricane isn't something anybody would disagree about. What Watt helped do is great. But he wasn't risking anything.

Think about, please do, what standing up for a divisive issue could mean. Those protesting police brutality and inequality have far more to risk for their statements than Watt.

marpag1's picture


Consider, please do, that you probably don't need to be quite so pretentious when the only thing Jonathan Spader actually said was that he admired JJ Watt's charity. Oh, the horror!!

Chad Lundberg's picture

I would recommend that you stop watching the news if you find it this depressing.

TheVOR's picture

Chad, I would recommend everyone stop watching the news until they can express a story without an obvious political agenda, or motive! When it's presented that way, it's no longer news, it's propaganda! Today's news is simply 2 political parties dishing out a series of half truths and opinions that support a political movement. It's brutal, and it's dangerous when left in the wrong hands. Won't change until Americans Stop the madness by shutting them off for inappropriate behavior.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

As I posted the other day, A lot of Blacks, (Not All) have a legitimate complaint about being Profiled. The other side of that is, There are Legitimate Reasons for it unfortunately. The fact is, The Flag is not the Venue to Protest. Any time anyone kneels at the National Anthem, I wish he would think of the 450,000 Soldiers, mostly white, who died in the Civil War to free the Slaves. That was the same Flag. I'm not Racist. I don't favor 1 Race over another. I call them as I see them. Like it or not, there is Trash in all Races. There is also a lot of Good in all Races. Way too many people Died for that Flag. We have enough conflicts in this world. We don't need this one.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Whoever gave me the dislike for this post: F#@K YOU & the Horse you rode in on . You F#@KIN' MORON!!

Johnblood27's picture

Give 'em hell!

Johnblood27's picture

but, please leave the bestiality out of it...

marpag1's picture

LOL. Easy, LVT. I didn't down vote anything you wrote, but there is plenty in there that I cant really agree with. I don't know where you get the number 450,000, but approximately 620,000 died in the US Civil War.

About 260,000 of those dead ("mostly white" as you say) died on the Confederate side. Those white AMERICANS on the Confederate side died while fighting for a very different flag, one that was diametrically opposed to the Stars and Stripes. They died defending a government dedicated to the perpetuation of human slavery. Americans need to own the sad reality that this was a CIVIL war. In other words, it was us against us, and the confederates are us as much as the Union is us. So if the US civil war was fought in defense of high moral principle, then the people who were fighting AGAINST those high moral principles were ... um ... also us. And that kinda takes the shine and the glory off of things a little bit, doesn't it?

About 360,000 of those war dead died on the Union side, and damn near none of them died because they believed in racial equality, or because they loved the poor black slave. Read their journals and their letters from the front. Read the newspapers of the day. I've read thousands and thousands of them. Even many of the so-called abolitionists were still shockingly racist. The sad reality is that virtually NO ONE in the 1860s honestly believed that people of African descent were equal to whites. They did not want black folks flooding the job market, they would never even think of allowing their daughter to marry a person of color, and they sure as hell were not willing to die for the sake of the poor persecuted slave. That's just the sad reality.

It is one thing to stand against the institution of slavery. A lot of Americans in 1860 did that. But it is a totally different thing to believe in racial equality. Almost no American did that in 1860. Even "Father Abraham," the Great Emancipator, thought that we should solve the "negro problem" by ... ahem .... "sending all the black folks back to Africa where they belong."

If the abolition of the institution of slavery were the same thing as the establishment of racial equality, how come the civil rights movement was just picking up traction ONE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER the time if the US Civil War?

I'm a white guy, if anybody cares to know.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

marpag1 I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, & I know 600,000+ soldiers died in the Civil war. I thought it was roughly 450,000 on the Union side. My only point was that a lot of white Union Soldiers died to free slaves, whether they agreed with it or not. Many were just kids. Those soldiers & the Flag they carried deserve to be Honored, not Disrespected. There is another side to this story if you want to get into it. Gen Sherman burned Atlanta down to the ground. There is plenty of disrespect to go around. The fact is, it's our Country, & our Flag. You either Love It or Leave It. There are without question Legitimate Protests. The Flag Is Not the place for any of them. If you want to Disrespect the American Flag, move to Mexico. Maybe you'll like it there better.

Finwiz's picture

Blah, blah, blah.


porupack's picture

Well said Marpag. Nice to meet those who appreciate the finer details gleaned from history.

Finwiz's picture

Good post - no dislike from yours truly.

dobber's picture

No offense you to LVT (I didn't downvote you), but if you post--no matter how patriotic, well-intentioned, or sensible--you've got to be prepared to take the "thumbs-down". In many cases, it has little to do with what as written.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Hey dobber, You're Right, I jumped the gun. I should know that by now. My problem is, I always think I'm Right, I'm Not!! Sometimes I'm wrong. I guess that comes from gambling??? I actually can see the other side of this issue, even though I don't agree with it. I shouldn't have Blown My Stack. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's what America is all about. I wish I could see things that way all the time, but I can't. My Fault!!

Gman1976's picture

If a man can give his opinion without desecrating our national anthem and desecrating our flag that represent our great freedoms and our great sacrifices from our great heroes, then I can listen to him. But if a man has to be rude and has to dishonor the great things about this country, he isn't worth listening to. The NFL leadership made a huge mistake by not enforcing their own rules and not enforcing normal workplace rules to keep politics out of the workplace. Instead, they have anarchy and anger; and they are losing longtime fans who will not tolerate poisoning our game and lives with the poison of disrespect and the poison of political opinion shoved down our throats.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Gman1976, Wish I had said that!!

flackcatcher's picture

David, you are still at the beginning of your life, relax. There have been, and will be far worse things to come in your life. There also will be much happiness and joy that will be given and received. As one who has worked to support the relief efforts in both our southern states and the islands, I am here to tell you that people are tough, grateful, smart, resourceful and above all caring. And that is all before any type of government help. Things like anger, hubris, and madness will always be with us. It's call the Human condition. Yes, even athletes like Aaron Rodgers and sports writers like Peter King need to be hit with reality once and a while. We all need to push out of our comfort zones every now and then. These days may seen like one bad thing after another. No they are not. What happened on 9/11/01 was a bad day. What happen today in Las Vegas was a bad day. What happen Thursday night to a bunch of football players was NOT a bad day, just a bump in the road. People will adapt and overcome. We always have, we always will.

EdsLaces's picture

Crazy year. All this chaos going on around us. My little brother is clinging to life after his lung transplant. My wife asked me to move out and moved another guy in less than 2 weeks later. I'm obviously...broke haha. And yet I still smile. We as people and especially as Americans take everything for granted and it's so sad. I smile for one reason ...i woke up. Life is amazing and we need to enjoy it while we are here. If my brother were able to be enjoying it ..he would. If those people in Vegas at the concert or even someone like Adam Czech were still here I know for a fact he would. I have a blast every single day. I mean why not? Side note and my son are currently burning stuff in the fire pit hahaha.

Spock's picture

Ed, Your wife's loss. You sound like a caring guy. I'm pulling for your brother's recovery. Keep smiling, my friend. I spend most of my days in a boatload of pain, but I try to keep a positive attitude. A good day for me is waking up without some new pain, I like your attitude!! Burn, baby, burn.

EdsLaces's picture

Crazy how a stranger can tug at your heart strings. Wish everyone could try and see the good in people.

Vet1976's picture

If the players, owners, and NFL management think there is a big problem with policing, then by all means, organize and work to fix the injustice you perceive...but don't you dare spit on my flag and spew your political descent during the playing of our national anthem--as these are the great symbols that enable your voice to be heard.

Finwiz's picture

I'm sure you meant to use the latter.

an action of moving downward, dropping, or falling:
"the plane had gone into a steep descent"
synonyms: dive · drop · fall · pitch · nosedive · downward climb
a downward slope, especially a path or track:
"a steep, badly eroded descent"
synonyms: slope · incline · dip · drop · gradient · declivity · slant · hill
a moral, social, or psychological decline into a specified undesirable state:
"the ancient empire's slow descent into barbarism"
synonyms: decline · slide · fall · degeneration · deterioration · regression

hold or express opinions that are at variance with those previously, commonly, or officially expressed:
"two members dissented from the majority" · [more]
the expression or holding of opinions at variance with those previously, commonly, or officially held:
"there was no dissent from this view"
synonyms: disagreement · difference of opinion · argument · dispute · disapproval · [more]

Johnblood27's picture


Golf coast? sounds great and truthful in one sense, however I believe that the correct word is Gulf.

seems like the right place for this too...

dnicholson's picture

Respectfully, I disagree that there's a proper time and place to make a statement. And I don't believe that locking arms, taking a knee, or simply sitting on the bench is tantamount to disrespecting the flag or our veterans.

Finwiz's picture

Respectfully - you are young, and most likely have not grown up in a school system where you pledged allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We talked about what it represented every day - even in public schools. Grow up in a military family with a father that had you marching around the living room to ruffles and flourishes - the Marine Corp Band. You get an understanding and appreciation for what patriotism embodies.

When the national anthem plays, and you face the flag, you put your hand over your heart and sing. It can bring tears to my eyes. Obviously it doesn't have the same effect on, or meaning to you. That's unfortunate.
The national anthem is not the time for your social protest. Keep spreading your words of division, and see where it leads us. You may not be happy with the effect in the end. There are many among us who have relatives that died to defend that flag, and there are many more among us that will fight to defend it again. This is serious business to many.

If Budweiser pulls it's sponsorship from the NFL - watch the rest fall like domino's. It's just a game in the end, and we will treat it as such.

dnicholson's picture

Respectfully, each and every reference to my age is patronizing. I grew up with the pledge of allegiance, and I came later to know it was adopted at the end of the 19th century and "under God" was added during the Cold War to further differentiate the United States from the Soviet Union.

We can do this all day.

When would be a more appropriate time and place to make a statement near and dear to one's heart?

Finwiz's picture

Boo-hoo....I don't really give a flying F if you feel patronized or not. Another product of the progressive school system.

You're the first candidate of the new week for a glass of warm milk and cookies. Got milk?

dnicholson's picture

Wasn't complaining. Just pointing it out. Also, eat me.

Since '61's picture

To David and others who are too young to remember I recommend that you watch the recently released Ken Burns, PBS series on the Vietnam War. During the '60s we had 3 major political assassinations, the Civil Rights movement, worst of all the Vietnam War and the anti-war movement and then of course capped with the WaterGate scandal in the early '70s. That era was both violent and divisive. We (the American people) were lied to by 3 successive President's about our involvement in Vietnam.
I lived in that era, watched most of it happen, spent some time in the Nam and luckily I'm here to talk about it.
Here's what I know. When the s**t hits the fan and you are in a fox hole with another guy going to back to back, you're not fighting for the flag or freedom or rights. You are fighting, praying, desperately hoping to make it until tomorrow and you don't care if the other guy is Black, white, brown, green or blue as long as he can go back to back with you for as long as it's necessary.
Now I know too many guys who weren't lucky enough to make it through the times in the s**t. Those are the heroes. Those are the guys who, we the living, owe not just our respect but we have the responsibility to live good lives and to be decent to our fellow men, regardless of race, greed, religion, etc. It is our responsibility to find a way through this madness by helping others to be respectful, tolerant and to listen to each other. That's what those guys fought for whether they were in Vietnam, Korea, WW2, or one of the more recent Mid-East conflicts. That is what it is about.
We all have our lives and our jobs and businesses. But unless we can come together and do the hard work of having the necessary conversations to make things better, at least, then this violence will continue and we will just be shaking our heads in confusion rather than finding the answers.
Yes, this is a difficult and confusing time, but we have been through worse before and this too shall pass if we decide to make a difference. Start simple, think of someone you can help and do it. Volunteer. Don't worry about who is right or who is wrong, we have enough of that already. Move past it. Move on to helping bring people together. Go on from there, but start ASAP.
Thanks, Since '61

Finwiz's picture

Hats off to you for your service. I would have never figured.
Army I don't sound like a Marine.
I missed it by a year or two.
Enlisted in the Marines as it was ending.

In my estimation, we weren't really lied to by 3 presidents, it was only 2, unless you are counting Ford.

I've seen the PBS series a few times.
Nothing that happened there changes the fact we honor the flag, and the fallen it represents.
The national anthem, and presentation of the flag, is not the time for any of our protests.

Since '61's picture

Fin - It was Army. 3 Presidents include Kennedy, Johnson and of course, Tricky Dick Nixon. JFK considered leaving but didn't want to appear weak on communism so he wanted to wait until after the '64 election. Great reason for making a decision which affected so many lives. And we know how that worked out. Johnson and Nixon, well we know their stories.

I agree that the the flag or the national anthem are not the appropriate venues and I don't condone it. I would have preferred if the commissioner (LOL) or the NFL owners would have told Kaepernick and the others from the first instance that the kneeling was not allowed and that they would be fined and/or suspended if it happened again. But they let it go and here we are. Now leadership needs to act in a way that supports us coming together to understand how it has come to kneeling during the anthem and what can be done to move forward together.

We are reaching the point where we are not just divided on important issues we are becoming divided on everything and it appears that we no longer seek to compromise. Our republic has always served us well when both sides have worked to compromise rather than confront each other. Thanks, Since '61

Finwiz's picture

In my not very humble opinion, Kennedy did not lie to the American people. It was well known he sent advisors to Vietnam, it just wasn't publicized.
He was very reticent about sending troops to Vietnam, and by all accounts was resisting the military industrial complex on all fronts as they urged him for aggressive movement against the communists.
They call him chickenshit and everything else, including a commie lover.
I think he had a vision that was uncanny, and had he lived, things may have been very different. I believe his resistance to confronting the communists over Cuba, coupled with his lack of aggressive action in southeast Asia, were arguably part of the reason he was assassinated.
A very ugly time in the history of this country.
LBJ, even though he was a social liberal, was a total military hawk.
As soon as he was sworn in, he reversed all of Kennedy's executive orders regarding military stance in Vietnam.

I don't see a change or Kumbaya moment in the future for our country.
Rather I see continued division, and real possibility of some form of civil, social war. I don't have to look any further than my own family, one that's very divided politically. I have a brother who's supposed to be intelligent but he drank all the east coast liberal establishment kool-aid, and keeps coming back for more. Totally misguided BS - just like the 60's. Totally impractical to think we should become a European socialist republic. We can't afford it. Everybody, to the extent of their capabilities, needs to be productive to some degree, and should be compensated according to their skill level, as the free market dictates. There is no free lunch.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Finwiz, I agree with most of what you say here, except the Cuba connection to Kennedy's death. Vietnam probably. My wife & I eloped to California in Nov- 67. She got homesick, so we drove back & stopped in LV & got married. When I left Vegas, I had $65, No Job, No place to live, she was Pregnant & drove back to Brown Deer, WI on $35 worth of gas. When I got to my parents house my Draft Papers were in the Mail Box. I was Drafted Dec 14, 1967, right before the Tet Offensive. When I got to the Induction Center in Milw, I was picked by the Marine Core. To make a long story short, I wound up getting Deferred because I had just gotten married, & my wife was pregnant & didn't have to go to Vietnam. It may have saved my life, I don't know, but my bags were packed.

I have the Highest Regard & Respect for everyone who served in Vietnam. We all lost some Innocent Friends. (Hero's), but For What???
The sight or mear mention of LBJ makes me Sick!!

Disrespecting the Flag or National Anthem doesn't fall under Free Speech in my opinion. If you don't like it, GET OUT!!

Wish I could debate the JFK Assassination with you. I have an interesting Theory. I don't think it had anything to do with Cuba, as LBJ did nothing there & he wasn't assassinated. I do believe it was a Mob Hit, & I don't believe Oswald fired a shot.

Finwiz's picture

Bay of Pigs, as it related to my comment on Cuba, being viewed as a betrayal in the military industrial complex, more specifically the CIA backed rebels that Kennedy promised to support, but hit the "chicken switch" and changed his mind. Rebels were slaughtered by Castro forces, and fomented the deep hatred within the CIA toward Kennedy. Certainly not the only reason he was killed, but MAY have played a part. Who knows? I've read so many books on this I have a library.

This was bigger than a mob hit and way too complex to be their doing. And after all these years nobody talked, and all the witnesses that were 'offed'. Much bigger than Trafficante or Giancana. I thought 'mob' for a brief moment, but you have to read further. I could suggest several books. It would open your eyes. This was scary huge, as our government was corrupted and taken over by powerful forces. Awful time in the history of U.S. history - 1961 - 1975.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Finwiz, You are absolutely correct on the Bay of Pigs issue & the CIA. It could have easily played into it. No question the CIA hated Kennedy because of that, but LBJ did nothing either. I believe Giancana was behind it for a number of reasons which could include yours.

The problem is the Warren Commission starts with Ozwald being guilty & creates a Time Line to fit. They leave all of us to prove him innocent, instead of the other way around. Yes, I believe the CIA, Vietnam, maybe the Mobs Casinos in Cuba could have all played a part. I'll throw in one more that you've never heard or researched. Marilyn Monroe!! She was shacking with both, & was one of Giancana's girlfriends. If they had anything at all to do with her death, Giancana would have got him. Far Fetched probably, but still a possibility.

My theory is Ozwald was duped into thinking he was part of a Secret Service team, CIA to protect the President on his treck through Dallas. At the proper time I believe he was told the motorcade was delayed & should take his lunch break. That's when the real shooter went in. If they can start with a theory, so can I. Ozwald had a cab. Take the cab to California. I always hoped I'd get the answers to a few things, & this was one of them. I guess we never will. It's a tangled web. They have since taken down the Fire Escape on the Right side of the building. Do you know if there was one on the backside? I've always wondered that?

Spock's picture

Finwiz & LVT (or anybody else interested in history), I STRONGLY advise you to watch two shows on the History channel, I'm not sure exactly the names for each series but you can figure it out. The first is a series where an ex-CIA guy and a former retired police "Profiler" re-examine the shooting of JFK. Amongst some of their findings (documented with the release of previously sealed CIA documents) showing that Oswald was, amongst other things, trained by the CIA as one of the fighters for the Bay of Pigs invasion, and he, like many others, felt betrayed by Kennedy when the president decided to halt the air support and called the planes back home. The other series was called something like "America's War on Drugs" and shows that the cocaine and heroin problem was essentially STARTED by the CIA with their (Illegal) LSD experiments on unsuspecting students and military personnel. Absolutely shocking stuff. In fact, I couldn't even go past the 2nd installment of the war on drugs series as I was so angry/disgusted by what was shown. Anyways, much as I love my country, a lot has been done (mostly by the CIA, hmmm) that has been hidden from us. The unsealing of "Top Secret" old documents shows us all an alarming view of the U.S. spy departments. I'm not exactly naïve about government but these shows shocked me to the core!

Finwiz's picture

I got a book you can read if you are interested. I read the whole thing sitting poolside and on the beach in AL on vacation. Riveting.
If you believe the CIA was largely behind this, you would love this book.
Shocking stuff.
If you're interested I'll go down in the library and grab the name and author.

OK, here it is:
Last Word by Mark Lane
Introduction by Robert K. Tanenbaum
Copyright - 2011

My indictment of the CIA in the murder of JFK

Spock's picture

Finwiz, Thanks for the information. I'll have to check that out (actually, more likely my wife as she's the history buff in our family).

Since '61's picture

Mark Lane was Oswald's attorney. He wrote the first of the conspiracy books titled Rush to Judgement. However, in recent years he has backed off his stance on the CIA and the conspiracy theories due to the volume of evidence released from the national archives pointing to Oswald as the only assassin acting alone. The forensic evidence just doesn't support any other shooters involved. I recommend to you and any interested in the Kennedy assassination to read "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi. Or at least start there. Another good book on the topic is the "Kennedy Detail" about the Secret Service who were in the motorcade on the fateful day. I was originally a conspiracy believer but the evidence just doesn't support a conspiracy, and it never has. Thanks, Since '61

Finwiz's picture

I know all about the secret service and what they did, or more importantly DIDN'T do that day. They were all standing on the side rails of LBJ's followup car, but nobody on the presidential limo. Ask yourself why? Totally against protocol - and they were all out drinking late the night before, and ALL slow to react, except for one guy. Secret service was complicit. The question is, who told them to stand down on security, and why the open windows in Dealy Plaza? Totally against security on the route.

Then also ask yourself why they have video of LBJ actually ducking down in the followup car PRIOR to shots being fired? I guess he was tying his wing tips? Shocking stuff. Read further, and don't believe everything they tell you because the government LIES for a living.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Since '61, I've always enjoyed your posts, but in this case you are falling into the same web that the Warren Commission wants everybody to believe. Even Gerald Pozner who wrote the book "Case Closed" & agrees with you states that "You Cannot Prove Oswald fired even 1 shot from that window". You can only assume he did. I and a lot of others disagree with your Premise, that Oswald is Guilty. There are only 5 know Facts in this case.

#1 Oswald was in the building at the time of the shooting.
#2 Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor
#3 Oswald was found in the 2ond floor cafeteria 90 sec after the shots
#4 Oswald was the only employee to leave the scene.
#5 Oswald hailed a cab a block & a half away.

Everything else is Theory & Assumption

You can only assume Oswald did the shooting. All of these facts can easily be explained away if you start with a different Premise. The Forensic Evidence that you talk about is a palm print on the gun, found day's later. Fingerprints at the Book Suppository mean nothing. He worked there. He could have easily been set up, as he said, if you'll look at other possibilities. Vincent Bugliosi only supports the Warren Commissions version. They start with the Premise that Oswald is guilty & then created a Time Line to fit. It just may have happened a different way.

Unless you look at other possibilities other than Oswald is the gunman you'll never find a different conclusion, if there is one? This is such a Tangled Web, I doubt we'll ever know the truth, & I don't believe we have it now.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Depository, Same Thing!!

Since '61's picture

LVT - it's not theory or assumption that Oswald gunned down Officer Tippett. 12 witnesses saw him do it. Why? If he was not guilty. It's also not theory or assumption that Oswald tried to assonate General Walker a few months before he shot JFK. It's not theory or assumption that every reporter in the media car some of whom were WW2 vets or correspondents reported that 3 shots were fired from the school book depository. All the reporters had that story off independently and immediately from their car via the radio phone. I've read Posner's book, it's a good one. It's not theory that they recovered Oswald's rifle and it had recently been fired and that Oswald ordered the bullets via mail that matched the barrel of his rifle. I could on and on about this but this is not the forum. As I mentioned I have looked at other possibilities, I was a conspiracy believer until the 1990's when the National archives released tons of evidence which only points to Oswald. Ask these questions; Where are the curtain rods that Oswald claimed he was carrying into work that day? Given the nature of our media why has not a single piece of credible evidence been found in over 50 years since the assignation? If Oswald was not the only shooter why didn't Bobby Kennedy, The U. S. Attorney General with all the power of the U.S. Government plus the resources of the Kennedy empire, conduct further investigation to find out who murdered his brother. Why don't the conspiracy authors ever discuss Oswald's attempt to assonate General Walker? Why don't the conspiracy theorists ever discuss the actual seating arrangement in the President's limo when discussing the single bullet theory. Why don't the conspiracy theorists ever mention that Kennedy's seat in the limo was slightly raised (to increase his visibility to the public) or that Kennedy was wearing his back brace when they discuss how he fell. Why do they never mention that Ken O'Donnell, Kennedy's best friend, never left his body from the time he was shot to the time he was placed in his grave? Why was the Secret service not on the Kennedy limo? He ordered them off the limo during their previous trip to Tampa. Another item never mentioned by the conspiracy theorists. Why do the conspiracists never mention that Jackie requested that the autopsy be conducted at Bethesda about an hour before the plane landed in Washington, when they discuss the autopsy. They don't mention these items because any one of these blows up their conspiracy. I could go on and on. People don't want to believe that a lone gunman could shoot the president of the U.S.? Well a few days ago we had a lone gunman do a lot more damage than that with all the security and cameras that exist today that did not exist in 1963. It can happen, it did happen and it is still happening, and yes the government lies to us all the time but not every time. Thanks, Since '61

Finwiz's picture

Since '61- there were NOT 12 witnesses that saw him do it.
There were people that saw it happen, including a cab driver, but not a ONE of them could definitively identify Oswald as the person they saw.
I've read enough books on this to know who saw what, and what could have been used in a court of law.
The fact is, the man was presumed guilty, and never had a trial.
The palm print on that rifle wasn't found until days later.
It wasn't seen when they first ID'd the rifle.
The 3 shots is completely debunked by many, many witnesses.
They wanted to tell the public it was "echoes". They even badgered witnesses into saying they heard echo, and not 4-5 shots.
There were ex-military people riding in the cars that called it a "hail of gunfire".
Tree's in the way, signs in the way, car traveling 15 MPH at 88 yards moving away.
Oswald military record from the Marine Corp said he had "maggies drawers" on the rifle range, meaning he wasn't very good.
They train guys enough that they become proficient and give them a medal - call him a marksman. Everybody was an marksmen, or you didn't get out of boot camp!
I could go on and on - nothing would be solved.
Mystery that will NEVER be unraveled.

LAS VEGAS-TOM's picture

Since '61, WHAT IF??? You don't start with Oswald firing the shots. No one saw him do it. At the time there was speculation that Oswald was either CIA or trying to get into the CIA for financial reasons. What if Oswald was the Patsy that he said he was. What if, as I believe, he was duped in some way by the CIA or the MOB into thinking he was part of a Secret Service Team to protect the President on his treck through Dallas, & that the 6th floor was his perch. He brought his gun in. At the right time someone in authority told him the motorcade was delayed & he should go & take his lunch break, which he did. Once he became aware of the shooting, 90 seconds later, he knew he was set up, & his gun was on the 6th floor. He then left the building. I'll make this short. He had a cab. Why did he give up the cab & start walking down 10th street. He knew he was set up. He had to be going somewhere to find someone. If you just killed the President, why not get your gun & kill the cab driver & take the cab to California. Where was he going, & who was he looking for? I've always wondered about the Officer Tippit shooting & if Oswald did shoot him, What was in his mind. He knew he was set up. Did he think Tippit was suppose to kill him? The fact is, he could have gotten out of Dallas with that cab, & he chose not to. I've always believed that Ruby played a bigger role in the assassination. All of what you say is just conjecture. He could have just as well been set up over a period of time. We'll never know the facts. Based on the evidence, he would have never been convicted in court. As I said, the problem is that The Warren Commission starts with Oswald being guilty, instead of the other way around. They came up with their theory that Oswald did the shooting, & created a Timeline to fit their theory. What if what I just told you is the way it happened? What if another shooter went in the window. Is Oswald guilty then? Where was he going?? Who was he looking for?? I believe he was what he said he was, a Patsy. Isn't it possible??

dnicholson's picture

I'm all over anything Ken Burns does. I appreciate, as always, the thoughtful, measured comment. Thank you.

Since '61's picture

David - It's good to hear that you are aware of the Ken Burns films/documentaries. His work is balanced and thorough. It is vitally important that the younger people have a sense for history and how we got where we are today. Your age group will soon be taking on the major responsibilities of our nation in politics, economics, health, corporations, etc... Embrace it, try to learn from the past mistakes and the past accomplishments. There are plenty of both. You will never be fully prepared but seek to understand first. Encourage your friends to watch the Ken Burns series. Thanks, Since '61

Spock's picture

David, I started out to comment on leaving the "real news" off of CHTV because a Packers site is where I go to get away from all this insanity. Here is what I originally was writing, " I know you felt the need to comment about the craziness in the world and the violence, but the reason I come to CHTV is to get AWAY from that news. It depresses me that even my "get away" site is compelled to comment on the bat shit crazy world we currently live in. I just want to talk/discuss football on this site. While I applaud your intentions, I just don't want this to intrude on my one, and only one, distraction from the "real" world. There are plenty of sites to discuss this on, and I am ashamed to admit that I just can't handle this type of news some days." That is what I ORIGINALLY intended to comment on. But, on reflection, this is just too important a topic to leave off of any site. I'm just depressed by the world in general today; why can't everybody just get along any more? Another sad day in an increasingly messed up world. I just don't see a bright future ahead and I feel for the youngsters amongst us.

dnicholson's picture

This response means more to me than you can know.

This awful feeling you feel? We're feeling it together. That means we have at least two things in common. 1) This sucks. 2) We love the Packers.

That, to me, feels like a pretty good starting point. So let's keep it going.

A Pickled Packer's picture

Never thought the game of football would be turned into a political football. What a shame. For the sake of my sanity, I'm tuning it all out. They will not take away my enjoyment of this game. I will tune out the anthem and in retribution mute all commercials. They will not get me riled up over something I have no control over. Will not be suckered into it. Ya'll can go take a hike. Go Packers

ArlenWilliams's picture

I'm thinking of players in the Jim Brown era, including blacks eager to make us proud, as their cousins might get water-cannoned in the old South.

Honor our national standard. It is our national standards that allow us equal justice under law and ever increasing senses of goodwill in each others eyes. Resist attempts to "progress" from our national standards.

Do your jobs.

dnicholson's picture

Jim Brown's rookie season was only three years removed from school desegregation.

Seems like we have a lot of history fans in this thread. Alright, well go look at the most championed set of middle class-building legislation, the New Deal, and then take into account that blacks were often left out. GI Bill, bank loans, Housing Act of 1934.

Generations later the effects still being felt. But God forbid an athlete take a stand (or a knee) to try and shed light on inequality.

croatpackfan's picture

There is so much evil in the world. Evil that divide humans (like wars, terorism, mass murders, etc.). But, when natural catastrophy strikes, humans becomes closer and help each other, no matter what race, religion, nation, sex, sexual orientation etc. And that is the only positive what we got from natural disaster.

My thoughts are with families striked by any kind of catastrophy...

Thegreatreynoldo's picture

1) I'm the embodiment of privilege.

2) There’s no escape. And we’re not entitled to escape, either.

3) we need to listen—to escape the static for long enough to really hear each another.

4) In my 30 years, I’ve never come close to a comparable feeling of division, chaos, and hopelessness.

I liked this article, overall. I thought the 4 points above were the most interesting. That you are the embodiment of privilege seems like a non sequitur to me. At any rate, it is an undeveloped thought. Why is that important?

I agree with #2. Ultimately, there is no escape. As adults, we will have to deal with the choices that are made, whether we participated in them or tried to mold those choices or not.

I agree strongly with #3. I think free speech is under serious attack.

As to #4, well, you sound both 30 years old and without much sense of history. There are plenty of periods that had as much or more upheaval and division. Of course, you limit it to your personal experience: that is, 1987 to the present. My guess is that my list of troubling trends and downright catastrophes during those years might not look anything like yours. I suspect adding hopelessness just sounded good. If you are without hope, then #1 through #3 don't really matter.

Lphill's picture

Yes Reynaldo free speech is under attack by the liberals who claim to support it , just look what happens when a conservative speaker is scheduled for a talk somewhere , look who is protesting , the left . They only support free speech when it's from their own . Sports should not be a venue for expressing political views . Nether should this site , go Pack go !

dobber's picture

Free speech is under attack from all sides--conservative, liberal, Christian, atheist, etc.--and in more venues than we know or recognize.

This is a troubling time for our nation as it tends to run ever more to political extremes and stalemate rather than to the middle and to compromise. We lack focus and perspective, and now live in an era of outrage...sometimes over little things like tweets and innuendo, and sometimes over major things (like mass shootings). We don't know how to not be outraged, anymore, it seems.

Until we regain focus, perspective, and a regard for our fellow man, this isn't going to get much better.

stockholder's picture

People scream Free speech. The flag is Love and Freedom! To be respected and Feared. The flag is flown at half-mast to honor. By taking a knee how are you creating unity? What a lack of respect. The split in this country only weakens it. Stand up. Quit bitching about the past and the police. I've heard it since the 70s. Respect has to be earned. And if you want it, earn it. I pledged my allegiance to it since grade school. The NFL is wrong! Stand up for it!

Flow49's picture

Look to Mizzou to see where this gets you. If you like what my alma mater has become by all means keep interjecting ideology into the NFL. My 2 cents let us keep our politics free zone, where we can all hate each other in good fun. Bears still suck !!

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