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Railbird Central Podcast: Dreadful Safety Play in Green Bay

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Railbird Central Podcast: Dreadful Safety Play in Green Bay

Episode 350

Now that the 2013 season is done and over, the time is appropriate to take a look back at what transpired and one undeniable takeaway is that the Packers did not get very good play from their safeties, and that's putting it mildly. Without a single interception from the position, Morgan Burnett and M.D. Jennings combined to be perhaps the worst unit in the NFL. The entirety of today's episode takes a look at the position.

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Brian Carriveau is the author of "It's Just a Game: Big League Drama in Small Town America" and editor of Cheesehead TV's "Pro Football Draft Preview." To contact Brian, email carriveau@uwalumni.com.

Comments (155)

Point Packer's picture

I don't think you were exaggerating, Brian. Our 2013 safety play was stunningly horrible. We need to start over completely at the position - dump Jennings, Richardson and Banjo - and make damn sure Burnett is fighting for a job next year.

Steve's picture

Couldn't have said it better

Sum Ding Wong's picture

If you cut Bush, Hyde, Burnett, Jennings and Hayward and start over, that play will improve a million percent next year. Not one of these guys could get picked up by any other team.
They are all smallish in size, slow, have no cover skills at all and are poor tacklers.
I hear how people are high on Hayward. Last year when he did play our D ended up ranked 32nd.
Three of his interceptions were because he was out of place and should not have been where he was. The receiver was long gone and he was standing in the open, alone.

Brian Carriveau's picture

Congrats. This comment is in the early running for "Worst of 2014."

phillythedane's picture

Is there a category for "Most Offensive Username" of the year?

Al Fresco's picture

Brian I actually watched this team on the field this year and game in game out like 2012 too, receivers were wide open, uncovered and ran for big yardage after their catch.
I aso read a report online that stated our defense was 32nd in 2012 and middle of the pack this year. SO why don't you get your facts straight before calling someone else out who actually knows more than you do.

packeraaron's picture

You "read a report online"? Well that seals it!

That's adorable Al.

4thand1's picture

So Wong lmfao. Didn't finnish 32 last year, that was the Saints. Cut everyone fire everyone. What moronic trolling.

jack in jersey city's picture

the only think wong is most of your ideas about building a football team :D

Nick Perry's picture

I think perhaps you need to look at the opposing QB's passer rating when throwing Haywards way in 2012. He was the top ranked CB in 2012. Granted he didn't play EVERY snap, but enough to be NUMBER ONE! QB rating for what it's worth was 23.7 and he didn't allow a TD. Brians right except you win for "Worst of 2014", I don't believe that one can be beat!

4thand1's picture

Agreed. Sometimes when I read a posting in here, my jaw hits the keyboard. I have to read it again to see how ridiculous it really was. All you can do is laugh and ask WTF !??!!!

Al Fresco's picture

I look at the player at the time of interception and wonder, why is this guy in space, no one near him? He has a job to do cover somebody and he wasn't doing that, because he is slow, can't keep up and obviously not in shape to play this year? A hammy injury for a year??? OH please!

A Dude's picture

When will you be healthy and play like a first rounder? Bust.

Al Fresco's picture

The Packers D will be there achiles heel until they spend the next three drafts bringing in players with speed and agility at linebacker, dumping the 3-4 and getting DE's ala Julius Pepper with leverage skills and speed, acquiring some shut down corners and safeties who have size and strength to go up against the 6'5 receivers they face in the North Div.
Guys like Raji, Jolly and Pickett are dinosaurs today against the option styly QB's. The 3-4 does not work against them and the better teams are all moving in that direction.
Three years starting now to rebuild and redisign the defense.
Our D was 32nd in 2012 and they kept Dom. Not good for the Pack future.

4thand1's picture

You're off by 21 in the rankings. Packers finished 11th overall in 2012. Another factless idiot troll.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Not according to PFF a private data collection org who sells the stats to analyst. They rated the d 32nd. Hell, I know for a fact our d almost set a league record for most passing yardage allowed that year. How impressive

Bert's picture

A passer rating of 141!! Holy crap that's ridiculous. Peyton Mannings' PR is 115. So our safeties made opposing QBs look much better than Manning!!?? OK. Lets conclude our safeties stink. If there was ever a time for TT to give FA a try this year is it. Very surprising if we can "fix" the safety issue with draft picks alone for 2014. A veteran FA AND a high draft pick are in order. They can just be average and will look like HOFers compared to what we have now.

larry valdes's picture

Agree with you bert tt should have known better we neeeeeeeeeed safety lbbbbbbbbs nt. And please get 2 de super bowl thank you ted

4thand1's picture

What gets me is how wrong the Coaches were about the secondary. At the start of the season, the secondary was supposed to be the strongest part of the defense. Is it due to a lack of QB pressure? It seems more like they just didn't get it. This year the elephant in the room is the bad safety play. It has to be fixed now. The front 7 were really banged up so they get a pass IMO.

WKUPackFan's picture

Expectations began to be tempered when: 1) Hayward was re-injured preseason (3rd game?); and 2) Burnett was injured game week before SF.

Hayward's loss proved to be disastrous for the entire season. He was the only true slot DB and an impact player. Without Hayward, either TWill and House had to play out of position, or Hyde had to play more than he was ready for.

Despite Burnett's struggles later on, his loss at the beginning apparently disrupted the communications. The Doctor and McMiilian having to play together speaks for itself. Burnett could never return to his promising form. Thus began the transformation from a promising secondary to a jumbled mess.

Swshko21's picture

I'm not sure if anyone is having this problem, but the "Download Audio Now" link is playing the Podcast from Wednesday I believe.

Brian Carriveau's picture

Thanks for the head's up. Fixed.

Albert Lingerfeld's picture

We have safeties that no one else apparently wanted and for a good reason, what ever that was.
However, if the real problem that remains is, someone on the Packers evaluated these guys pre draft and deemed them suitable. 31 other teams did the same and deemed them unsuitable.

Based on their play, and hey, its not year one for these guys, they are unsuitable, so the inherent problem is in the evaluators, not the players.

What's the point bringing in more of the same one should ask?

Al Fresco's picture

If you watch the play of the Seattle dbacks tonight you will notice unlike ours, they are mostly 6'1 6'2 with speed and power and can cover and tackle. They are not 5'10, smallish, slow of foot and weak tacklers.

They do command a premium salary for their services however. The good ones don't come cheap, huh Teddy?

Lou's picture

The difference in size is easy to see but there have been a few exceptions to the rule, such as Winfield (5'8") with the Vikings and Tillman with the Bears. The elimination years ago of the bump and run forced many larger CB's to the sidelines but just the reverse happens today as pure speed is the first thing they look for. Not having a safety making an interception since the "two way player" days is abject FAILURE. The Packers assistants have arguably the most job security in the NFL, Darren Perry needs to be "put on notice" and they have to consider restructuring Burnett's contract as they did Crosby's, no starter produced less per dollar than Burnett since Albert Haynesworth left the NFL. Time to send another message through the locker room as they did with discarding McMillian.

The TKstinator's picture

Tillman is 6'2" but Tim Jennings is 5'8"

WKUPackFan's picture

Pretty sure Richard Sherman was a 5th round pick and Browner came from the CFL. Seattle's secondary may tall but they're not that fast. AR picked them apart pretty well in the second half last year once he got some time to pass.

TT hasn't drafted a CB or S shorter than 5'11" in a long time. 6'1" and 6'2" DBs don't grow on trees. Speculating here, but most secondary guys that size probably started out as WRs (to DBs) or LBs (to Ss).

Point Packer's picture

They are fast enough and they have two top tier safeties behind them in Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor. Allows them to be very physical at the line of scrimmage, slow routes down and give their excellent pass rush time to get to the QB.

The TKstinator's picture

It all has to work together, just like you stated!
Cover but no rush? Toast.
Rush but no cover? Toast.
Gotta have the horses. Anybody can "scheme".
Hell, copy Seattle's (or San Fran's, KC's, Carolina's, etc) defensive playbook exactly, only with GB's players. What kinda results would you expect?

Bibbon Hazel's picture

Earl Thomas, Seattle (top 2 safety in the league in 2013) is exactly 5 11 genius. You're just pulling this out of your ass. You're Al Davis combine measurable draft strategy isnt the most successful if you haven't noticed. The safety position has more to do with instincts and ability moreso than 5 to 10 extra lbs and 2 inches of height.

TommyG's picture

this is correct.

Uncle Louie's picture

Enjoyed watching the Seattle, NO game. What a treat to watch players running full speed with a purpose, pressure on the QB's all game, receivers covered like glue and if they made the catch they got hammered immediately. Good hard hitting game.
Take notes TT and Capers you have a lot of work to do, good luck.

The TKstinator's picture

I disagree.
Check out my observations on the "five surprising players" thread.

Uncle Louie's picture

Hope your right. I just want to watch a much improved defense next season, that's organized and gets the job done.

The TKstinator's picture

Me too amigo, me too.
3-4, 4-3, whatever, just stuff the run, rush the passer, and lay the wood.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Do you really think there is a problem with the packer D. Unfortunately TT and MM don' see it.
Our dbacks look like a three ring circus out there, not a clue but hey they must be good its Dom C right?

4thand1's picture

Hey Al Fresco, wish we had Earl Thomas from Seattle. He's 5'10" what a useless shrimp.

larry valdes's picture

Just finish washing the Seattle/saints game the first thing you can get a chance to see is the play of safety I didn't see a hit from our safetys all year long a by the way, did you see how the free agents, linebackers play yes ted you should have signed at least one.

4thand1's picture

They would have gotten injured.

Bibbon Hazel's picture

2nd that. Stupid is as stupid posts

The TKstinator's picture

I can prepare shrimp like 57 different ways.

cLowNEY42's picture

Looks like McGinn is a troll, just like me!

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-getting-left-behind-by-nf...

This guys is clearly NOT a Packer fan!

What he's writing can not be true because it doesn't make the Packers look perfect!

By the way... I've noticed a couple of things while watching playoff games...

1 - our defense sucks. watching other playoff defenses really brings into focus just how completely inept the Green Bay Packer defense is.

2 - the only teams in the playoffs that have "stacked" wr groups are/were Den and GB. moral of the story - put your $ in positions other than wr (OL, DL DB). if you have just 1 go-to guy and a couple capable players you can still be successful. with that in mind, i hope the Pack doesn't re-sign Jones (unless he's dirt cheap). also - i bet a wr gets drafted surprisingly early because i don't think Cobb & Nelson will both get extended. 2014 might be Jordy's last in green and gold (I'm assuming they would resign Cobb over Jordy).

4thand1's picture

The Colts were so good. Also the Chiefs.

cLowNEY42's picture

did you read the article?
after you do - i'd like to hear your thoughts.
i'm sure you'll disagree with the whole thing, tough.

Arlo's picture

"Ted has shut it down lately. They've gone stone cold. They have not been utilizing all the markets. Now it's caught up to him."

The 'extreme homers' (the dozens here at CHTV) will need one more 8-8 season to finally realize that TT/MM only got lucky in 2010. Neither TT/MM are good enough at their jobs to deserve an elite QB like AR. M. Sherman ruined BF's career. TT/MM are in the process of doing the same to AR.

4thand1's picture

Well arlo I'll take luck every time if it wins a SB. TT picked Rodgers or did that slip your mind?

Arlo's picture

TT doesn't use all the tools afforded him to improve a 53 man roster. As a result, when injuries happen, GB is playing fringe players who simply aren't either skilled enough or experienced enough. It's what TT does. --- 8-8-1 tells me it isn't working.

LOL ---- 2005 was a long time ago. TT's other high draft picks have been more miss than hit.

4thand1's picture

Give me a break arlo. Rodgers didn't turn into a star overnight and CM record on the playing field speaks for itself. Finley makes defenses worry. Lacy, Jordy, Sitton, lang, Bulaga, Shields, Williams, and the book is out on a lot of other players.

4thand1's picture

No I don't disagree with the whole thing , but agree with it either. The Packers front 7 was decimated by injuries this year. As far as Coleman and Harrel, its a crap shoot. Also nobody wanted Flynn so blaming TT for not pulling the trigger on signing him right away is pointless. TT signed a veteran back up in Wallace and he got hurt after going 5 for 5 in his 1st start. Teams can go from worst to first in a blink of an eye in the NFL. There are a lot of teams that would like to be where the Packers are.

zeke's picture

Did McGinn write an article admitting to be a troll, just like you?

Stroh's picture

CowPie... There was also this article on JSOnline. Did you happen to read it?

"Dom Capers' recipe for defensive success gets tweaked"

It explains a lot in regards to the Defensive struggles. But you wouldn't care about why, would you, just an article that allows you to bitch more. You wouldn't actually want to know reasons for the problems and learn something would you?!

cLowNEY42's picture

I read this article.... a long time ago.

But thanks for the 100X's that you've recommended it to all of us.

Barutan Seijin's picture

Of course McGinn is not a fan. He's a sports journalist. (And one of the best football reporters out there.)

WKUPackFan's picture

And as a journalist, he's well aware that his #1 job is to sell papers. McGinn and his bosses know the best way to do this is with controversial articles. They also know that FA signings/non-signings provoke strong feelings among the GB fan base. Thus, we get the obligatory article questioning TT's methods.

I'm not trying to impugn McGinn's integrity, I enjoy his writing, especially when it's purely analytical. I just know that he knows what side his bread is buttered on. One of the keys to understanding articles like this is knowing why they were written in the first place.

Arlo's picture

You are so full of crap, I can smell it from here.

Stroh's picture

Really? So your saying every news outlet ISN'T in it to make money? Now we know who's COMPLETELY FULL OF SHIT! You!!!

I have a couple friends that work in the media and every damn one of them will tell you its about ratings. Ratings drive advertising dollars! This isn't rocket science here! Pretty basic stuff actually.

cLowNEY42's picture

OK... so you thought the article was "off-base"?

What parts did you disagree with?

The part where another team's exec commented on GB's lack of pro-personnel work?

The part about Rodgers' string of average qb play in the playoffs?

The part where TT got called out for leaving glaring holes in the roster?

The part where MM got called out for taking so long to get his footing when 12 went down?

Stroh's picture

Who was that executive and what has his team done lately? I doubt its anywhere nearly as successful as the Packers have been under Thompson! So your taking the word of an "un-named" executive w/ a track record not as accomplished as Thompson! Great idea... Keep trying!!!

Stroh's picture

BTW right now Carolina is getting pretty well man handled worse than the Packers. Kinda hard to make a case that Carolina is better than GB. Well except for you where logic goes out the window.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Cow you cannot rate the defense play against any other teams in a negatively fashion or you will be a troll.
Only cheeseheads in love with the packers and think they can do no wrong are supposed to be here.

Sum Ding Wong's picture

Other than me no one believes you except maybe Morgan M.
This defense begs for some FA talent with experience, and yes, get rid of jones and get some young blood.

4thand1's picture

Just get in. Make the playoffs. Stay as healthy as possible and get a little luck too. This year the Packers were lucky to get in , just like 2010/11. We had to lose CM in the Pitt game. I think with him we win the SF game. If SF wins it all, we'll be left wondering what might have been. I've said it before, make the right changes like they did with the running game and its another deep playoff run. The Packer offense will be unstoppable next year.

4thand1's picture

Andrew Luck has thrown 7 ints in the playoffs. He threw 9 all year. The Colts didn't win the KC game, KC lost it. They lost 1 receiver to injury.

4thand1's picture

Some people just plain don't like TT its obvious, It happens. I don't like Jerry Jones.

cLowNEY42's picture

Sure was awesome reading this quote...

'"They have no pro department up there" an executive in personnel said. Ted does some good things in drafting but they don't do (explicative) in personnel.'

I just don't understand this fear of FA.

So we're supposed to believe that EVERY OTHER NFL TEAM IS WRONG. Only the Packers are right.

That's just so conceited.

Or how about this (true) little nugget...

"After review, it could be said that Rodgers gave the Packers ordinary quarterback play in his last four playoff starts."

This team is spiraling.

packeraaron's picture

You were on point - until that last line, which is absurd.

Barutan Seijin's picture

What's absurd about it? Rodgers didn't play that well against the Giants & the two SF games. I didn't see the Minnesota game, but he was obviously good enough in that one.

4thand1's picture

The Giants game there were at least 10 dropped passes. Some were crucial. Rodgers was the leading rusher for both teams at halftime. The team sucked and usual the QB gets to much credit/blame for a teams performance.

Arlo's picture

4thand1
More excuses from the troll cop.
Go away.

Bert's picture

Well as of today we have very glaring holes at SS, FS, ILB and TE. RT is iffy depending on Bulaga's status and whether he can make it though a season. Way too many needs to fix via the draft. Just won't happen unless TT signs at least one or hopefully a couple FAs. The talent and coaching gap between our defense and Seattle and SF is sad. This team has needed an upgrade to the defense for years and we are just barely treading water with draft and develop.

The TKstinator's picture

I would have no problem with TT adding some FA's, but the problem is still the cap. Last year TT spent a BOATLOAD of $ in the offseason, but it was on his "own" players: 12, 52, and 42. (I notice they all have a '2', which would indicate EDS is next in line, but I digress.)

So next I'd think big $ FA's would be "out", and it seems like they are frequently not the "sure thing" they are intended to be.

Mid-level FA's would be next BUT if there are other teams interested the price goes up. So then maybe they're not mid-level any more?

With the cap you have to spend wisely. It seems to me that if any team has some high paid "playmakers", it must also have some low priced guys to balance it out and make the cap.
So, the big $ guys have to stay healthy and perform, and the low $ guys have to be at least "ok" when called upon.

12: injured. 52: injured. 42: did not perform

So there you go.

Question: is it possible under the cap to have NOTHING BUT big $ stars and midlevel salaries?

Bert's picture

Yep. No problem with that as we do not need a high $$ FA to improve the safety or ILB positions. We are stuck Burnett and his salary at least for another year. The bottom line is TT can choose to improve those positions or not. It's doubtful that he'll do it through the draft though. We've been going through this issue with the defense for 3 years now and have seen no results. You're right about the injury to #52 but I'm not confident that #52 will stay on the field enough to warrant the high $$. I hope I'm wrong about that.

Stroh's picture

Pittsburgh rarely signs any FA either, they have 2 SB in the last decade! Wonder if that guy works in a teams personnel dept and how many SB his team has won?

Just cuz some teams sign FA's doesn't make then better or right. Packers are as successful, if not more so, than any organization in the NFL. Every team has to have a philosophy and stick to it. Packers have a philosophy and stick to it. There's no right or wrong. Maybe you would rather be a Leo's fan. They sign FA every year, what the F do they have to show for it?!

Arlo's picture

Ever hear of the term 'flexibility'?

Ever hear of the term 'adjusting to fit the situation'?

A competent GM evaluates & adjusts to improve his team. If TT is unable to adjust, he should call it quits. A new, bolder GM might salvage AR's final years. TT is turning into another Mike Sherman!!!

8-8-1 --- Hard to defend TT when the real numbers are calculated !!!

Stroh's picture

8-8-1 without the best player in the NFL at the most important position in the NFL, and a laundry list full of injuries to other key players! Packers are a 12 win team if Rodgers doesn't go down to injury. Look what happened when Indy lost Manning. The fell from a 12 win team to a 3 win team!

But your complaing about an 8-8-1 season and a playoff trip? Get real f'in istic!

cLowNEY42's picture

OK, Stroh - I'll agree that my preseason prediction was wrong. I'll agree that w/ 12 this team would have gone 12-4.

Let's say they would have gotten the #2 seed.
Let's say that they would have played SF in the 2nd rd as opposed to the 1st.

Would the outcome of the game have been any different? No.

It didn't matter what playoff seed they got. This team has been caught, passed, and lapped by the 49'ers, Panthers, and Seahawks. It's sure starting to look like the talent and coaching of all those teams far exceeds that of the Packers.

Stroh's picture

And what would have happened had we played NO instead of SF? Its all conjecture! Even thinking that SF would still win in the divisional round is conjecture! Packers would have had an extra week to prepare. Maybe that makes the difference. You don't know and neither do I.

End of the day the Packers are a SB contender year in and year out. The D has let us down for the most part. I think w/ all the guys we have coming back the D will be much improved, at least as good if not better than '12. SF lost one Safety, and Justin Smith is about as old as Pickett so he could go in the tank very soon, and really already is heading there.

4thand1's picture

Stroh, he is the new biggest turd in here. He is as bad or worse than Mundane.

Arlo's picture

4thand1
The internet troll cop.
Can't you see that most here would like to see you gone.

Go away.

cLowNEY42's picture

"End of the day the Packers are a SB contender year in and year out."

Huh?

We much be watching different teams.

Arlo's picture

The homers continue to dream & hope. Most of what they say is either history or their future dreams for GB.

They need to deal with the reality of today.
8-8-1.

Morgan Mundane's picture

That is the crux, they have a game plan and go with it even if it ain't working

Morgan Mundane's picture

Cow here's the deal and why these morons think I'm a troll when I'm really their friend.
If you suffer for 45 years with a team (Lions) and they never made the playoffs because, the richest owner in football refused to spend a dime and put a quality team on the field.
That what his is about. This team under TT has spent zero on FA's, they deliberately have tried to put a team on the field of very very very late round picks who I say are smallish, slow, poor tacklers and can't cover.
I would love true packer fans to see this and stop with the freeking, we have so many injuries. Yes because TT drafted injury prone players from lesser programs.
I'm just saying, lets clean this fn mess up and get rid of the deadwood now: Burnett, Busy, Worthy, Raji, Pickett, Sherrod and Newhouse.

Stroh's picture

Go away Diaperstain... You know your a troll, we know your a troll, everyone knows your a troll!

Lets see how your "prediction" turns out... Packers no playoffs for the next 3 years. Ha!!! More like playoffs for the Packers the next 3 years, along w/ the past 5 years. That'll make 8 years of consecutive playoffs.

We are THE nemesis of all the other NFCN teams. We OWN them... To the tune of 14-1 the past 3 years w/ Rodgers! Now THAT is ownership! Utter and complete domination really.

The TKstinator's picture

And that recent article from JSonline about rookies having a tough time contributing in Capers complex scheme does not bode well either.
Would an experienced FA veteran defensive player coming in from another team have an easier time getting up to speed? I would hope so, but don't ask Marquand Manuel!

The TKstinator's picture

I have prepared my list of demands:
1. Drastically improve the defense
2. Stay under the cap
3. Do not jeopardize the ability to retain core players in the near future
4. Maintain/improve overall roster depth
5. Determine which players are going to be injured and avoid them; either don't draft them or don't sign/extend them

That is all.

Bert's picture

That sounds about right.

cLowNEY42's picture

"Do not jeopardize the ability to retain core players in the near future"

Who are your "core" players?

The ONLY core player on defense is #52... everyone else is expendable (I'm not saying every other defender sucks - just that I would not consider even one of them to be deemed "core" worthy).

P.S.

Here's my "list of demands"...

1. Use all resources available to improve the roster.

That is all.

Bert's picture

Yep. I like it. Short, sweet and to the point.

The TKstinator's picture

Short like my attention span.

The TKstinator's picture

Would you take one SB victory in exchange for 5 straight seasons of 5-11?

Not saying it would HAVE TO be that way, but would you make that deal (with the NFL devil)?

WKUPackFan's picture

No.

cLowNEY42's picture

If the alternative is 5 years of 10-12 wins and no SB, then HELL YES! Give me the 5 crappy years and a SB.

Stroh's picture

Well we have a recent SB season and consistently win and make the playoffs! So why the hell are you complaining every damn day?! Your getting more than your asking for and your still bitching!

cLowNEY42's picture

because we're done winning SB's.

and that makes me angry.

Stroh's picture

As someone recently already pointed out. You admitted your a troll! Go the Fuck away.

4thand1's picture

Ok Ron Wolf signed Jim McMahon, Eugene Robinson, Earl Dotson, Sean Jones, Don Beebe, Andre Rison, Keith Jackson, Reggie White and won 1 SB. A lot of older players who could still produce. Maybe that's the way to go. But after that the team declined . Is it because they were still a playoff team but when you don't pick in the top 10 you don't draft many impact players? The same thing seems to be happening.

Stroh's picture

Completely different times. Can't even compare how Wolf did it and Thompson. Its MUCH harder to manage the cap now and most FA are FA for a reason. Their previous teams didn't want them anymore. Teams don't generally let productive players leave! Sometimes you can find a gem somewhere, but not often. Thompson found 2 FA gems and both were remarkably successful in GB and helped make GB remarkably successful. Maybe it would happen again, but just as likely, if not moreso it would backfire and blow up in the Packers face and ruin the cap for a few years. Wrecking any chance for another Rodgers led SB run or two.

Barutan Seijin's picture

Wolf was just better than TT. That's how he did it.

Wolf was smarter in terms of risk-taking & he had no ego. TT seems to have some sort of personal investment in guys that Wolf would have dumped.

WKUPackFan's picture

It's impossible to compare Wolf v. TT. Different CBA, different salary cap structure, different FA structure, different era altogether.

Stroh's picture

Exactly. BTW how many SB did Wolf win? How many does Thompson have?

Hank Scorpio's picture

Wolf may be better than TT but both have the same # of SB wins.

People remember Wolf's successes with acquiring vets. But he had his share of failures, too. Mark Ingram, Tunch Ilkin, Russell Maryland, Raleigh McKenzie, John Thierry, Raymont Harris and Bill Maas were among the guys brought in from elsewhere that didn't work out quite as well as some of the aforementioned success stories. One of those successes (Bruce Wilkinson) was a throw away backup that became necessary to bail out Wolf's 1st rounder (John Micels) who was as big of a bust as anyone Thompson has drafted (including Justin Harrell).

My point is not to say Wolf sucked. He did not. He was a great GM. The point is that even the great GMs make mistakes. If you focus on them, you lose sight of the big picture. And in the big picture, Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have contributed the same number of titles to the Packers total of 13.

Horse's picture

Alonzo Highsmith, I believe, is in personnel but maybe he just plays Angry Birds all day. The guy who was responsible for pro player eval got hired away last year.
I wonder who found the midget car salesman in Jacksonville.

WKUPackFan's picture

The point the "TT should sign FAs" crowd keeps missing is that roster/team building is a multi-year, continually evolving process. The goal is to keep the team competitive every year over the long term. Almost all FAs are inconsistent with this goal. FAs are for the "we just want to win this year, don't care about the future" folks. Of course, those same folks would bitch for years if that one magical year didn't produce a SB win and the Packers were plunged in salary cap hell like the Cowboys.

Arlo's picture

Now the only thing the homers can say is that your team needs to remain competitive. The goal is & always has been to play in & ultimately win the SB. Ask any NFL player or coach. Ask MM and any assitant coaches. ---- So then, why are the 'homers' content with making a long list of excuses?

Go ahead. Ignore 8-8-1. Talk about fair-weather fans.

WKUPackFan's picture

This really isn't that difficult. Of course the overall goal is winning the SB. In order to win the SB, a team must first make the playoffs. In order to make the playoffs, a team must be competitive. in order to remain competitive, a roster/team has to be built with a multi-year plan, not grasping at straws every year, thereby mortgaging the future.

Arlo's picture

Every NFL team has multi-year plans. Some have the balls to use all the tools afforded them by the NFL.

8-8-1. The only numbers that count.

WKUPackFan's picture

I'd argue that every team does not (see, e.g., Dallas, Miami, Cleveland, Buffalo, Minnesota, Detroit). Regardless, the issue becomes whether it's a proper multi-year plan. Some people perceive holes in the roster and think FAs are an immediate fix without any thought as to how such signings could negatively impact future years.

cLowNEY42's picture

A couple fairly successful FA's who played multiple seasons with their teams...

Drew Brees
Payton Manning
Charles Woodson
Mike Vrabel
Reggie White
Matt Birk
Julius Peppers
Jarred Allen
Justin Smith
Warrick Dunn
Wes Welker
Steve Hutchinson
Ryan Pickett

I don't think anyone on here is asking TT to start signing 1st day FA's. But to not sign any... ever... is a bit ridiculous. It's ok to "admit" that there are good players available outside your organization. It's also ok to admit that players you've drafted are not be as good as you thought they might be.

It's ok to admit mistakes.

Arlo's picture

Check out how the Panthers were created via this link. Another example of a team that's not afraid to improve their roster using all the tools.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/01/10/4602138/panthers-gm-dave-get...

4thand1's picture

The Panthers just got smoked. GB was a dropped int of beating SF. Wear Cam's jock on yer face for the rest of the year.

Arlo's picture

The Panthers won 12 games against some good teams in 2013.

8-8-1 for the Pack.

You have no argument. Sorry, facts rule.

Stroh's picture

Your completely ignoring the FACT that Rodgers, the best player in the NFL at the most important position in the NFL was out for 8 games. That's FACT too... Packers would have been a 12 win team, w/ him healthy.

If your going to use facts use ALL of them and quite cherry-picking only the ones that suit you!

WKUPackFan's picture

The Panthers have 3 winning seasons out of the past 10. Difficult to consider them as a model of how to construct a consistent winner.

Stroh's picture

You mentioned 2 FA that Thompson did sign! And it helped get us a SB. So your saying he needs to sign FA's, and he did! Simply can't do it every year, and now w/ Rodgers and Matthews takeing about 1/4 of the salary cap its going to be more difficult.

Carolina, Seattle and SF aren't having to pay QB's 20M yet. Lets see how many FA's they sign, when SF is paying Kaeperdork and Aldon Smith 30M or more between them? Or Carolina w/ Newton and Keuhkly. Or Sea w/ Wilson and Sherman.

Simple truth is when Thompson had some money to spend he signed Woodson and Pickett! Now he doesn't have that disposable cash to throw around. Such is life in the NFL. When you win a SB guys like Rodgers and Matthews have to be paid top dollar. Seattle, SF and Carolina will learn that lesson soon enough. Any of them will be lucky to win just one SB before it happens. Packers have their SB and have every reason to believe they'll have a shot at a couple more!

cLowNEY42's picture

"...and have every reason to believe they’ll have a shot at a couple more!"

Unless they change their MO I don't think this is true.

Not enough talent.
Not good enough coaching to overcome the lack of talent.
Not good enough at acquiring talent.

I, for one, will assume that from here on out (unless something changes) every year that the Pack is fortunate enough to make the playoffs will end up being a one-and done situation.

Prove me wrong Packers... stop sucking against talented, well coached teams.

Stroh's picture

I DO think its true!

Elite NFL offense, led by the best player in the NFL and a great tough RB.

An OL that will be better even if it doesn't get another player.

Playmakers at WR in Nelson and Cobb.

Young ascending Defensive players that will help turn the D around.

Find a Safety and ILB and the Packers can play w/ anyone anywhere anytime!

McCarthy one of the top 5 or 6 HC in the NFL. Thompson one of the top 3 GM's in the NFL.

Feel as or more confident the Packers will win a SB or 2 in the next 5 years as any team in the NFL.

cLowNEY42's picture

"Young ascending Defensive players that will help turn the D around."
-Hahaha
-trying to figure out who you're talking about here.

"McCarthy one of the top 5 or 6 HC in the NFL. "
-Hahaha
-Tomlin, Belicheck, Harbaugh, Harbaugh, Carrol, Payton, Reid, Coughlin, Fox

"Thompson one of the top 3 GM’s in the NFL."
-maybe 4 years ago.

"Feel as or more confident the Packers will win a SB or 2 in the next 5 years as any team in the NFL."
-THIS IS INSANE!

Stroh's picture

Go to hell troll. Why don't you try being a Fan of the Packers instead of disciple of every other team!

I did searches on both HC and GM. McCarthy not rated outside #6 and mostly higher. Same w/ GM's and Thomspon always listed in top 3. Try google it works.

All you do everyday is put down the team you claim your a fan of. Tells me your a F'in troll and a fan of another team, notably SF!

4thand1's picture

Really cow, don't you have anything else to do. I envision you with a large jar of vasoline, sitting naked at the computer waiting to reply.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Gee I heard the commentator on the game today saying Carolina can do the 3-4 because they have the personell to carry it off.
Apparently we don't.

Morgan Mundane's picture

I have the Packer missing the playoffs for the next three years at least. Lions, Bears and Vikes are spending the money where needed to improve. Rogers can't overcome that with this defense

Stroh's picture

Write it down everyone!!! Morgan Diaperstain has the Packers out of the playoffs the next 3 years! Mark in down, just like CowTerd...

Morgan Mundane's picture

Are you takling Worthy who did nada before being hurt and did nothing since.
Are you talking Datone J, who sat on the bench half the plays?
How about Mathews who now has missed large parts of both seasons and by NFL writers is grossly overpaid compared to his counterparts.
How about Perry who I read is considered a bust by pro football analyst and I agree.
I just don't know who you are referring too?

Sir Cheese's picture

We will be putting that prediction up there with Cow's 6-10 (with a healthy Arod & countless other starters) as one of the worst of all time. I will be sure to quote you on it in 1 years time when the Packers win their division yet again.

Morgan Mundane's picture

are you for real? Rogers is just an above average QB now compared to the young studs now in the game.
Mathews is rated a bust. Ya pro football says ol Ted gave the farm away on him and there are several LB's who have much better stats and are paid hailf. So when your buddy Teddy passes on FA talent, remember who is getting that money. Two guys, one out 5 weeks one our 8 weeks

larry valdes's picture

Agreed with you no bringin asafety to replace md jennins all year is inexclusive.same with ilb

The TKstinator's picture

That's why I asked the 1 SB vs 5 years at 5-11 question.
Problem is, even going "all in" doesn't GUARANTEE a SB win.

I also think TT leans more toward paying "his own guys" over bringing in FA's from other teams. Just seems that way to me.

It seems to ME (I'm not a GM!) that in order to rapidly improve the defense for 2014, it's going to take some draft choices AND one or two carefully selected FA's. Are they out there? I do not know. Not my job.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Ya here's the problemo. Our nemeis in the North also get to draft

Stroh's picture

What nemesis is that? You mean the teams we're a combined 14-1 against the past 3 years w/ Rodgers at QB? Yeah count me as not too concerned about ANY of them for the next few years.

Detroit MIGHT be good if they can get their heads screwed on straight, but they haven't yet! The bares are saddled w/ Cutty for as long as we have Rodgers, so we'll continue to dominate them. Minn is lacking a QB and by the time they find one Peterson will be long gone and their D is in complete need of an overhaul! None are hardly what I call a nemesis... In fact the Packers are THE nemesis for every damn one of them!

Bert's picture

Now back to the main topic. Our safeties really, REALLY do suck!!

The TKstinator's picture

Heh
You're not going to get much debate there!

WKUPackFan's picture

But the other topics were so much fun (for a while).

Seriously, perhaps we should consider that TT was not as clueless about the safety need going into this year as some think. Perhaps he looked at the available rookies and found them lacking with respect to a long term investment. One season later is not enough time to know if this was accurate (assuming that was the thought process), but I'm not aware of any rookie safeties that made a significant impact this year.

The same could be true for the FA safeties. Reed, no; Michael Huff, no; Goldston, same problems as previous years. In short, TT may have thought there just wasn't anyone available that could make a consistent contribution, this year and in the future.

The counter argument could be made that the Doctor and McMillian were so bad that anyone would have been an improvement. In hindsight that could the case.

Stroh's picture

Clearly the Packers drafted McMillan to be the safety opposite Burnett. They missed on a 4th rd pick. That's hardly cause for firing. I think Capers saw a little of Polamalu in McMillan and had something to do w/ his drafting. Either way McMillan was supposed to be the starting Safety. They gave him every opportunity to show that ability and he failed.

With a little luck, Richardson could turn into a quality Safety or the find one in FA or the draft. Richardson has the size/speed you look for, just needs to show more consistency in coverage.

Don't want to count on Richardson at this point tho.

Morgan Mundane's picture

They won't even let him play so obviously there is something wrong

Stroh's picture

He's medically cleared and he got a lot of snaps the last few games. They're bringing him along slowly, since he is very inexperienced in coverage. This offseason will be the deciding factor in his growth. If he steps up and plays to the athleticism or even close (since his athleticism is OUTSTANDING) the safety position is solved.

Of course if you were a Packer fan and watched even a little you would already know this wouldn't you Troll?!

4thand1's picture

arlo you SUCK! Packers were 5-2 when Rodgers got hurt. Came back and won the final game with him. 6-2 out of 8 games, that translates to 12-4. Stick that fact where the sun don't shine you pompous ass.

cLowNEY42's picture

12-4 would have equaled a loss to SF in the second round as opposed to the first. yippee.

Stroh's picture

You don't know that either. Its an easy copout but no one knows what happens if we play SF a different day. Maybe Hyde makes that pick and we're beating Carolina and going to the NFCCG next week.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Ya and we beat the mightly lions, vikes bears and redskins and a san dieogo team that hadn't completely came together. Against good teams we were 1-5

4thand1's picture

Wrong as usual Shrek. Never played SD. Maybe your team did, whoever that is . You're no Packer fan, you factless POS waste of time. You sound like a lonely alcoholic.

The TKstinator's picture

Or was it San Dee-Ah-Go??

Loud noises!

zeke's picture

On behalf of all of the other lonely alcoholics out there I must register my outrage that you included this asshole as one of us. Factless, yes. Piece of shit, obviously. Waste of time, absolutely. But lonely alcoholic is a slap in our collective face. How dare you.

The TKstinator's picture

zeke you are on a roll! Keep up the good work!

larry valdes's picture

I just finish reading an article were coach perry calls md jennins a solid player i.belive that calls for fire him imidiatly if the position coach think that md is solid what can we expect.

Jordan's picture

Bottom line is Packers have not recovered from the loss of Nick Collins. Go back and watch 2009 and 2010 TiVo packers games and you'll notice Collins putting a bone crunching hit on the speedy Michael Vick at the 1. You'll also notice nick Collins tackling a fleeing speedy Vick mid field. I assume you guys know Collins was a legit 4.3 40 guy.

Collins tilted the field to the packers' advantage with his speed in secondary. QB's had to be wary of his speed because of how much ground he could cover on deep balls. He had many TD saving tackles that resulted in FGs instead of TD's. All that stuff added up. He made everybody better on D. And turnovers certainly gave the O more opportunities. And man the O needed a ton of opportunities.

Kaepernic does not run all over packers with nick Collins in the line up. Collins was not afraid to lay the wood either.

So look for speedy cornerbacks in the draft that can make transition to safety like Collins did. It's our only hope Obi-Wan.

Point Packer's picture

Collins was great. We need another. Don't have one on the roster.

If I were TT, I'd draft a safety high and utilize FA to get experience at the position. Dump Jennings. And Dump either Richardson or Banjo. Give Burnett a chance to fight for his position, but don't guarantee it. Doesn't deserve it.

Stroh's picture

Your not going to find too many 6' 205lb safeties that run sub 4.4. Closest one since was Eric Berry who was right at or a shade above 4.4 and he went top 5 IIRC. Richardson has terrific athletic ability if that's all you want. He tests as a 1st round pick, basically identical to Eric Reid was last year. He needs to improve his cover ability to see regular playing time. Otherwise he's got all the talent in the world athletically.

Lou's picture

The one point Bob McGinn made that was the key to the entire 2013 Packer's season and that was that McCarthy insisted Harrell and Coleman could back up Rodgers even when the casual observer knew that was not the case. McGinn with his internal ties implies that McCarthy over ruled Thompson in this regard. All of the numerous points in the posts have merit but had there been a solid backup QB they all would have been mute. I don't think anyone can argue that was the key to the season.

Bert's picture

I see that Alabama safety Vinnie Sunseri has declared himself eligible for the draft. He's recovering from an ACL. Ouch. But do any of our folks who follow the college scouting more diligently than I do, know the skinny on Sunseri?

cLowNEY42's picture

Slow white guy.

Bert's picture

Ha!! Even slower now with a bad wheel I suppose.

zeke's picture

What does being white have to do with anything?

4thand1's picture

Slow like Smith in MN. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

4thand1's picture

Racist bastard.

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