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Packers vs. Lions: Quick Takes from Green Bay's 40-10 Loss

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Packers vs. Lions: Quick Takes from Green Bay's 40-10 Loss

The Green Bay Packers (5-6-1) suffered their worst beating since 2006, a 40-10 Thanksgiving throttling by the Detroit Lions that dramatically reduced Green Bay's chances of making the playoffs for the fifth straight season and exposed the Packers as one of the NFL's worst teams without Aaron Rodgers under center.

It was over when…

…Matt Flynn took a safety with 53 seconds left in the third quarter, putting the dominant Lions up 16 points. The way the Packers offense was operating, a field goal deficit might have been too much. This was all Detroit, from start to finish.

Game Balls

  • James Jones: The Packers finished with 126 total yards, 79 of which came via Jones. The veteran made an incredible catch around the back of Stephen Tulloch in the first quarter, and then battled for a deep ball on Green Bay's final drive. He didn't quit, which is more than you can say for a few others.
  • Sam Shields: It speaks to Calvin Johnson's greatness that a six-catch, 101-yard day felt quiet. Shields was beat clean on a few slant routes from Johnson, but no corner can be expected to shut out the game's most dominant pass catcher. Shields later picked Stafford's attempt at Johnson in the end zone, and he wasn't in coverage on the Stafford-Johnson touchdown (a busted zone look). Shields battled.

Key Stats

The Lions out-gained the Packers by 435 yards, which marked the biggest yardage discrepancy in an NFL game since 2005. Detroit tallied 561 yards, while the Packers needed 65 yards on their final drive to get to 126...Green Bay's 126 total yards were the least since 2006, when the Packers had just 120 in a 35-0 loss to the New England Patriots. The 30-point deficit was the largest since that game, too...Detroit had 30 first downs, including 14 rushing. The Packers had seven. And for the first time in 23 years, Green Bay didn't have a rushing first down. The last time Green Bay didn't have a rushing first down in a game was 1990...The Lions averaged 7.1 yards per play. Green Bay finished at 3.0, but for most of the contest, that number hovered around 2.0...Detroit held the football for over 40 minutes, just four days after the Packers played almost 80 total defensive snaps against the Minnesota Vikings...Detroit was 9-for-12 on the third down, while the Packers were just 2-for-10...Green Bay forced four turnovers but still lost by 30 points...One week after Adrian Peterson and Toby Gerhart totaled 237 rushing yards, Reggie Bush and Joique Bell combined for 211. Bush had 182 total yards...Jeremy Ross, cut by the Packers in September, had a 24-yard reverse, a five-yard touchdown catch and 116 total return yards...The Packers forced just one punt.

Other Notes

– The Packers are dead in the water unless a fading run defense turns around. For the third time in four games, Green Bay gave up 200 or more on the ground. Overall, Detroit's 241 yards rushing were the most allowed by the Packers since 1997. Is there an easy fix? Green Bay is being bullied at the line of scrimmage, and the linebackers simply aren't good enough—especially inside—to consistently shed blocks and fill gaps. This is an execution and effort problem in the front seven.

– Five straight quarterbacks have finished with a passer rating over 90.0 against the Packers defense. Stafford even threw two picks and still finished at 98.5, which speaks to the amount of big plays he otherwise found against a secondary that looks more and more lost every week.

– I won't completely excuse Matt Flynn's performance, but he didn't have a chance to move the football today. The Lions plugged the run consistently—which they've done better than any defense in football over the last month and a half—and then got after Flynn with just the front four. It was an impressive showing from the "scumbag" Lions defensive line. Flynn got whacked on nearly every drop back and took seven sacks.

– Name a team the Rodgers-less Packers could beat. I'll wait. This club is in the Jaguars category without No. 12. Four convincing losses and a home tie to the two-win Minnesota Vikings have come down the pipe since Rodgers left during the Nov. 4 Monday nighter.

– The Packers playoff hopes are now on life support. To have a chance, Green Bay needs to return Rodgers by next Sunday, win the next four games and then hope the Lions and Bears both drop two of four over the final month. It's a stretch. Winning four straight games, even with Rodgers under center, appears unlikely for this shriveling club.

– The Packers now get 11 much-needed days between today's whacking and next Sunday, when the 2-win Atlanta Falcons head to Lambeau Field. Atlanta might be a mess, but this Packers defense might just make Matt Ryan look like Johnny Unitas. Salvaging what ever is left of this lost season must start next weekend.

Zach Kruse is a 25-year-old sports writer who contributes to Cheesehead TV, Bleacher Report and the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He also covered prep sports for the Dunn Co. News. You can reach him on Twitter @zachkruse2 or by email at zachkruse2@gmail.com.

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Fan friendly comments only: off Comments (121) This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.

jh9's picture

I don’t know about anyone else, but I saw something in the Detroit game I’ve never seen before. I saw a Packers team quit. I’ve been a Packers fan for over fifty years and I don’t remember ever seeing a Packers team quit. What I saw on Thanksgiving was an epic fail. How does something like that happen?

There is no doubt that this team without Aaron Rodgers is an average team at best. However, when a team quits and isn’t even competitive tells me something else is fundamentally wrong. When any group of people who strive together to achieve a goal quits, what else could you ascribe that quitting to except a failure of leadership.

Personally, I will be watching to see if the Packers organization as a whole has the inner strength to look in the mirror and actually come to grips with this problem. Although I think they will start first by replacing Dom Capers--a move that should be made--this team didn’t just quit against Detroit on the defensive side of the ball. The entire team quit and that, I believe, directly reflects on Mike McCarthy’s ability to lead. I believe what we saw on Thanksgiving was the beginning of the end to the Mike McCarthy years.

jack in jersey city's picture

mccarthy has a 79-44-1 record with the packers, ranks among the top 5 coaches in the NFL, has won a superbowl, and consistently has his team in the playoffs. he's not going anywhere.

now i can definitely see them making a change at defensive coordinator. maybe some of the position coaches will be replaced as well, but mac's job is safe.

jh9's picture

For now...

Stroh's picture

For now as in as long as Rodgers is playing QB! As long as Rodgers is the QB the Packers are basically a playoff team and SB contender. McCarthy stays as long as he wants or as long as Thompson retires. He's going nowhere! He is among the better HC in the NFL, I would rate him in the 5-7 range. Theres no more than a handful of HC better!

Pitt Packers's picture

I hope this is not out of line, but does anyone else believe we do not have the personnel to operate in a 3-4 system? With all due respect to Jones and Hawk, this system needs a dominant MLB, and neither Jones or Hawk fit that profile. With Pickett and Raji potentially on their way out of GB, our D-line may find themselves in even more trouble (if that is even possible) without the big bodies in a 3-4 system.

I believe the personnel we currently have is best suited for the 4-3. Although I'd hate to say it, especially after we've spent the past four(+?) years learning an entirely new system (as far as GB is concern), I propose a change in our defensive scheme. I imagine I'm going to catch a great deal of flak for proposing this, but it's just my opinion, and a rather uneducated one at that.

Fred's picture

I don't think you're out of line, but I don't understand how changing to a 4-3 is the fix. Where do you put CMIII? Which crappy linebacker do you put in the middle? You've one average safety and 4 that are way below average. The D-line. Donwe even have a D-line? Maybe this group of players just isn't very good regardless of system/scheme. To me it doesn't matter wether it's a 34 or a 43 or some kinda hybrid D. The Packers need a coach who's going to put our best players in the best position to make plays and Capers simply doesn't seem to be able to do that.

For instance, Perry seems to make a couple big plays a game from the right side as opposed to the left where he set an edge but not much else. And CMIII can make plays from anywhere. (when both are healthy, that is) So why don't they just flip-flop? Also everybody and their brother has noticed that Lattimore is better than Jones and probably Hawk, too. Why does he not play more despite Jones being healthy (I know he was injured this week.) we need D coaches who recognize this and aren't afraid to make changes no matter how much certain players are getting paid.

I don't know if those moves would help, but now especially, they couldn't hurt and definitely doesn't seem like anybody at Lambeau is even interested in trying anything different or hitting any kind of panic button.

So who knows? Go 43, go 52, who cares? Just somebody do something!

Idiot Fan's picture

+1000000

It's funny to me how much people revere Holmgren and Wolf around here but disdain MM and TT, who have accomplished everything H&W ever did. Maybe you have to leave before people appreciate you.

jeremy's picture

People also complained about Wolf and Holmgren during their tenures. For example many people complained about a lack of Offensive weapons at Farve's disposal in the Post Super Bowl years.

billy's picture

pretty obvious Rodger and Favre made big Mac not the other way around....seems he can't figure it out without his superstar....

Stroh's picture

Belichek looked like a crap HC when he was in Cleveland and didn't have a QB. He gets a 2nd chance in NE has Brady and is now considered one of the best HC of all time. Funny how that works isn't it?!

I bleed Green More's picture

I have been a Pack fan over 55 yrs and I saw the same thing. It looks like they have 0 defense, could the team have looked worse I am not so sure.

Morgan Mundane's picture

If you watched the 9ers play off game last year, Kaperdink said the Packers quit. They just gave up trying to chase him and make tackles. They looked like beaten mules.

Mr Smith's picture

If someone doesn't take the blame for this I'm going to be awfully disappointed. MM did not have this team ready, and called another terrible game. Capers defense couldn't stop anyone. I'm afraid its time to change some things up. This team just ain't right.

FITZCORE 1252'S EVO's picture

"The Lions out-gained the Packers by 435 yards, which marked the biggest yardage discrepancy in an NFL game since 2005."

Somebody's head should roll based on nothing more than principal. That's inexcusable no matter who's in or out. Gross negligence.

FITZCORE 1252'S EVO's picture

Does anybody else ever wonder what would've happened had we hired Shawn Payton instead of MM? I'm not anti MM, but Payton made it known GB was his first choice if it were up to him... I just wonder how we'd be doing with him right now. Maybe better, maybe not... Never know.

Stroh's picture

He has one SB and so does McCarthy. Both have franchise QB's... I would call it a wash, but I know everyone else will say Payton just as someone they are less familiar with and that NO went in the toilet w/o him. Take McCarthy out of the coaching picture and the Packers probably struggle like the saints did.

Also we don't know how much he was a factor in the issues in NO that got him suspended. He was at least tacitly to blame. I don't see anything like that happening under McCarthy's watch.

Idiot Fan's picture

For the record, most people around here thought Payton was terrible and did not want him hired at the time.

Uncle Louie's picture

I think I'd have one or two more Super Bowl Champion Tee Shirts to wear. I know the offense would be dynamic, unpredictable, and unstoppable. And third and one would easily be converted.

Idiot Fan's picture

They had 4th and one on the final play of the game to beat us in 2011 and failed.

Ho Le Fuk's picture

I can tell you one thing, Shawn Peyton would not coach under Ted. Shawn knows talent and how to get that talent to carry out his game plan. He could never coach this team the way it is today, there are very few skilled players on this team to work with.
For example, he has three running backs who could be starters on most other teams. He has tight ends who are as fast as the receivers they have. His defense is quick to the ball and play great cover. That's not all coaching that's having and acquiring talent. Ted acquires bodies.

aljohn's picture

Shawn Peyton thought Teddy was ready to hire him ! Of course he would have coached under TT.

Idiot Fan's picture

His defense last year was epically bad, worse than our current defense, if you can imagine it. They broke records for poor pass defense that the 2011 Packer defense set.

Uncle Louie's picture

Peyton was banned from the NFL last season. When he returned he fired the Defensive Cord. and helped turn the D around in one year.. Imagine that being pro-active, what a concept.

Stroh's picture

Yeah and he was BANNED by the NFL! You ok having a HC who gets BANNED?! No thanks.

4thand1's picture

Its football. Its a game. Its all about winning. This team will get back on the winning track again. The ones who will do it are TT and MM , not a bunch of blogger critics who piss and moan when things don't go their way.

dawg's picture

WOW--Embarrassing!
Mark Murphy, if you don't want to go back to the 70's -80's, you better address this, NOW!
This has gotten why out of control.
With the exception of a hand full of players, this team has quit, and is not coached very well.
Im sick and tired of watching upper management strut around like GB is gods gift to the NFL, and put this Fuckin shit on the field lately!
And dont tell us one man makes a team, how stupid do you think we are!
Piss poor everything!

VENTED!

Jameson's picture

There are some serious concerns with this team. I don't blame this team's complete disarray solely on Capers. As bad as our defense has been, our offense and special teams have not exactly been masterful. In fact all three phases of this team are a complete nightmare right now.

I do think our coaching staff as a group is overall very poor. For whatever reason they have an inability to teach these guys, an inability to rally the team, and an inability to create plays and schemes to make this team successful. Because whatever they are doing at practice is causing them to regress as a team not get better.

This team seems to lack leadership and discipline. The captain of our ship, Mike McCarthy, seems to have lost his team.

It's disappointing to say the least.

But I'm just as troubled by our personnel as I am with our coaching.

I'm not entirely sure any coaching staff could do much with Marshall Newhouse, Devon House, MD Jennings, AJ Hawk, Brad Jones, Matt Flynn…..sort of seems to me we have some rotten eggs in some important positions.

And while it's easy to cover a bad egg or two, it's hard to cover 6 or 7 on every snap. We have way too many liabilities and I think that factors into what can be called. I mean when you can't even make a tackle there is no defensive play call in the world that will work. When your QB has less than 2 seconds to throw no offensive play in the world has a chance to develop. And our return man is not one. Plain and simple. We are a hot mess all across the board.

Stroh's picture

The fading run D has almost everything to do w/ Capers playing nickel w/ 2 DL what seems like 90% of the time IMO. You can't stop the run w/ only 2 DL on the field, I don't care how good those DL are!

dawg's picture

Yeah, I saw that too, how ridiculous.
That one run to the left gained 20 yds.

Lou's picture

Agreed, even if they were Reggie White and Merlin Olsen (27 Pro Bowls between them).

RC Packer Fan's picture

Yeah, That part I blame on Capers though. If your Nickel is getting their asses ran over, then change your nickel.

Go to a 3-3 or something. Play 3 DL, and do 3 LB's. That is my problem with Capers is he doesn't adjust what he is doing enough. He doesn't change stuff if it doesn't work. I like Capers and the defense he runs, but when your getting ran on all day, have to do something different.

Also, IMO I am starting to think that Pickett might be done? When he is playing the NT, he seems to get pushed out alot. Jolly seems to be getting pushed around alot too. I am thinking he is wearing down, probably from not playing in 3 years.

Tarynfor12's picture

How can anyone say that this team quit in this game when we've witnessed the same level of play for weeks.

The level of play we've been subjected to watching over these last few weeks isn't due to quitting but simply the lack of talent/ability/potential.

The potential that was hoped for has been non-existent for the larger part and though the coaching staff along with many fans held strong for its arrival,reality is a must and acceptance is vital in the moving on from some players.I would have to agree that a change in staff is forthwith also.

Will it be a wise decision to risk a more serious injury to Rodgers with the season lost and even if the miracle occurs where they were to make the playoffs.It wouldn't be by the play of us but the mishap of the other and still a one and done exit is undeniable with a team that so many say have quit.

Take what you can from players that at least offered up a play of note here and there but leave it at that for they certainly have shown more often a total failure to offer more in any amount of constant at any time this season.

NO more excuses...players came back and the expectation of a show was in order.

GO PACK GO...to the conference room and start figuring out who is worth anything and who is not and cut the cords.

MarkinMadison's picture

Couple of points, just so no one thinks I jumped off the band wagon when the team went south.

1. Look at Houston. Hugely talented team at every position group, but matt schaub goes south and the whole team goes down the toilet for the year. Don't judge everyone so harshly. The lack of quality play at QB sinks good teams.

2. When healthy, the combo of Raji, jolly and pickett up front controlled the run. Two ma fronts do not. Jolly has been nicked up. Raji has been a solid starter, but never the difference maker the packers need so badly right now. There a a few good 34 DE prospects that could be there in the middle of the 1st, and a good NT in the top 10. The last time tt picked that high, he came away with raji and matthews in the 1st.

Go pack go.

Idiot Fan's picture

I think what you meant to say was, "fire everyone and burn the stadium down!!!!!!"

dawg's picture

So your OK w/ everything?

Idiot Fan's picture

There are plenty of options between "ok with everything" and "fire everybody." I was ready to move on from capers after last year, and I'm even more in that camp now. But in general I'm of the opinion that consistency in the coaching staff contributes to success, and it's the lesser organizations that constantly recycle their whole staff. I'm certainly not interested in removing a Super Bowl-winning coach and GM combo because we hovered around .500 in a year with catastrophic injury.

Stroh's picture

Most of us aren't reactionists that lack perspective like you!

dawg's picture

SORRY
I cam't make excuses for this D- Line anymore. Pickett, Jolly and Raji don't cut it.
As a matter of fact, I'd take that 8 mil. offer off the table.
And TT better start getting to work, and earn his money.

billy's picture

please add our middle LB's....very average at most.

dawg's picture

Raji can probably hang in on a 4-3 D- line, but he doesn't have enough anchor in a 3-4 .
And thats why he hasn't sign the offer.

RC Packer Fan's picture

IMO, Raji needs to play NT. He plays outside to much. His best season was at NT.

I think he would be better if he played there more.

dawg's picture

Somebody Please keep TT away from drafting people in the trenches!!!!!

cheddarhead's picture

It seems with out Rodgers the offense can't score points. 13, 13, and 10 is not going to cut it. That's fine if the defense holds every team under 10 points every game. Not happening.
This is a defense that is spoiled and is used to playing with a lead. And expect them to be out there making plays and being on the field for 40 minutes a game . This is why having Rodgers is such luxury. It's easier to play defense with a lead than from behind.

dawg's picture

Where is Lovie Smith?

Lou's picture

My guess is that the number one question at seasons end will be - Who Will Replace Dom Capers ? Besides Lovie Smith or an equivalent experienced defensive co-ordinator I would think that Mike Trgovic or Kevin Greene are under consideration internally. All of you have both pro and con arguments for keeping or dismissing Capers but the fact of the matter is deserved or undeserved, Capers is about to be the 2nd Bob Sanders.

Idiot Fan's picture

Lovie, for all his faults, is actually a hell of a defensive coach. The problem is, I think MM really likes the 3-4. Part of me would really like Rex Ryan, but he's also a bit of a dickbag, so I'm not totally sure.

billy's picture

Hey, at least he would be good for a few quotes a game!!! Not some "genius" sitting up in a booth nodding off....Rex Ryan would be great but not gonna happen...too much for Teddy boy....

dawg's picture

MM and Love Smith, kinda gives you that warm feeling don't it.

dawg's picture

HA

RC Packer Fan's picture

nothing like laughing at your own jokes. :)

hump's picture

you guys have got to be FUCKIN KIDDIN ME!! TED FKN THOMPSON IS THE ISSUE!!! LIKE SOME OF US HAVE SAID ALL ALONG!!! this team he has assembled has less talent than any other team in pro football, minus one FREAK DRAFT PICK THAT WAS A NO BRAINER,RODGERS WAS THE ONLY POSSIBLE SANE SELECTION,and other than that,he has hit on 10 percent PERIOD!!! THOMPSON HAS BEEN EXPOSED! EGO EGO EGO!!!! THE STATE OF WISCONSIN FELL FOR THIS GUYS BULLSHIT,and let him assemble a team that he has hand picked,and talked the public into believing in,when in reality,we are Jacksonville plus #12,and thats the FKN FACTS!!!! SAVOR 2010 PACKERLAND,AS IVE SAID IN MOST ALL MY POSTS,THIS TEAM COULD NEVER WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITH THIS DEFENSE THAT HAS BEEN DRAFTED AND DEVELOPED BY MR.TED THOMPSON AND ARODS NEXT 5 TO 7 YRS WILL BE A WASTE AS LONG AS OUR GM IS IN CHARGE!!!!!! STROH AND LONGSHANKS.....GLAD SOMEONE HAS FINALLY SHUT YOU UP,AND IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE YOUR MAN, TED F'N THOMPSON!!!!

Uncle Louie's picture

Yep. TT sucks , and people are FINALLY figuring it out. Hope Rodgers plays a few more games this season to prove to the TT admirers that he can't help the defense. Where's Bob Harlan when you need him. Draft and develop to the bottom of the NFC North with the best player in the NFL, Ouch!

Geo's picture

Amen

Idiot Fan's picture

My 3rd-grade daughter is currently learning about the difference between facts and opinions. I think some commenters here could stand to revisit that particular lesson plan.

billy's picture

even though you are shouting, I tend to agree with you!!! I dont see weird Ted as some savant, he's a cheap skate and thats why management likes him....they know the seats will always be full.

joe packer's picture

the debacle made me nostalgic for my youth: yellow pants flying all over the field, missed routes, missed tackles, journeyman quarterback missing receivers, clip boards thrown to the ground in disgust. a team in hopeless disarray.

… like old times.

Joe Dunbar's picture

2 words. Mike. Holmgren.

kurtMc's picture

TT and MM are not going anywhere. Murphy will see to that. However, finding a play caller to replace MM would be wise.

Capers and the 3-4 sceme are gone, or should be.

Again, as fans were are soooooo fortunate to have two back/back franchise QB's. In Brett's case, he cost a 3rd, maybe a 4th Superbowl shot. In Aaron's case, MM concervitave play call and just awful D are wasting SB trips. We don't need a top 5 D, just average or consistent (not consistently BAD) to get too another SB.

#12 can carry this team.

My two cents, Peyton would have done more given the Offensive talent than MM, but we'll never know.

Please Mark Murphy, fix this train wreck and stop wasting the SB chances. Aaron's time is closing.

Lastly, does Anyone else wonder why Bill Bellicek teams with a bunch of no names and Tom Brady compete every year? He adjusts, MM and the Pack do not.

2014 Go Pack

RC Packer Fan's picture

MM and TT are fine.

Capers I am thinking will go, but the 34 should stay. The 34 isn't the problem as much as the guy calling the 34 plays. Need a more flexible, more willing to change things up when they aren't working D-Coordinator.
My problem with Capers is he pretty much stays with his defense even if it isn't working. Also he is way to conservative.
The defense seems to always be moving backwards vs, being aggressive and moving forward.

While I agree with your points. You wouldn't be saying this stuff if the Rodgers didn't get hurt and the Packers were 8-4 or 9-3 right now, which is probably where they would be if Rodgers didn't get hurt.

billy's picture

I wouldnt mind it one bit if TT took a hike...Seattle got better when he left...

Stroh's picture

Nevermind that he's probably the most highly respected GM and talent evaluator in the NFL!!! Little to No Chance we'll find better to replace him. Same goes for McCarthy... Before you fire them you better be absolutely positive your getting better to replace them! And that just isn't going to f'in happen! You wanna see a team go downhill in a F'in hurry watch what happens when they leave. We Might get lucky and have Eliot Wolf take over, but its a guess whether he's better. Only a dumbass fires a very successful GM/HC combination!

Paul Ott Carruth's picture

Aaron Cromer would be a strong candidate. Utilizes his talent and adapts his offense to meet current situations far better than McCarthy.

aljohn's picture

What we are seeing is mediocre talent at best with a great QB . TT has played it conservative over the years with free agents and this is what we get .Average drafts at best and not spending money to plug holes .

Pack12's picture

There is no doubt that losing Aaron Rodgers was a major blow as there is a steep drop at the QB position. Having said that, what the Aaron Rodgers injury has exposed is just how bad this team is. For starters TT & MM did not properly address the backup QB position as they were ill prepared for Rodgers' injury. But the real issue is how Rodgers because of his great skill masked just how bad this defense is. By constantly putting up big passing numbers Rodgers kept opposing offenses off the field and a lot of times made them one dimensional thus making it easier for the defense. I have been a Packer fan since the Lombardi days and the one thing that stands out about the Packers then versus now is the inability to make a tackle. Even when the Packers won the Superbowl in 2010 there was a lack of proper tackling. They either throw themselves at the runner/receiver or just grab. There is no wrap-up. Lombardi's teams were all about the fundamentals, blocking and tackling. The opponent knew what was coming but they couldn't be stopped. In today's NFL the big focus is on schemes but I don't care how good your scheme is if you can't execute. We need help in so many areas...defensive line, offensive line, linebacker and the secondary particularly at safety. Unfortunately all these needs can't be address solely through the draft as TT likes to do. I agree that you have to build through the draft but it takes years for players to develop and last I looked Aaron Rodgers is about to turn 30. The window is closing. TT has to be a little more flexible and play in the free agent arena a little more. And I don't mean signing some bench warmer but top free agents. If you look at the teams that are competitive they all have solid defenses...Carolina, San Francisco, Seattle and even New Orleans. San Diego had a great offense back in the 1970's but could never win it all because they did not have a premier defense. It's about time this defense is fixed and that will require more than players. It will require going back to fundamentals.

Morgan Mundane's picture

Good points Pack but for me Rogers absence did not in any way expose the terrible defense. I thought the defense scuked from the first day of pre season.
I saw no pass rush to speak of, no pass defense or run defense either.
Hey, when our number one pick is playing part time in pre season, that should tell the fans something.
The oft hurt Perry seems to mirror Worthy who takes a lot of plays off. Yes he is better this year but not number one draft pick better.

Pack12's picture

Morgan, I agree that defense sucked before Rodgers went down but we now know just how much.

kurtMc's picture

Hump, don't hold back..lets us really know how you feel. I'm no TT supporter, but my two cents is that he has been above average in draft picks.

I just think his in flexibility with FA, and love of "Draft & develop" have been taken too far.

That's a Mark Murphy issue that has to be corrected

Idiot Fan's picture

When it comes to D&D versus FA, there are positives and negatives either way. You can draft someone who doesn't pan out, or you can bring someone in who doesn't pan out. But one of the negatives of FA is that you always pay a premium in terms of salary because you are competing with other teams. Given our current situation, with two players taking up a significant amount of our salaray cap, every penny counts, which makes bringing in good FAs even harder. If I had to guess, TT would be even less likely to use FA now than before. Such is life with an all-universe QB. Oddly enough though, two of TT's biggest successes - Pickett, and especially Woodson - were FA pickups, so he's got it in him somewhere.

kurtMc's picture

Mathews & Rogers will take up 20% of the $122M cap in 2014, 24.8% in 2015 and 25.8% in 2016.

Hardly a crushing amount of the total cap. Point is that the Packers have options and TT needs to explore and exercise ALL options in FA and the D&D strategy he so dearly loves.

This D is all about coaching, scheme and accountability. Fundamentals like tackling the man, not the balls, wrap up, not shoulder tackle, maintain your lane, etc.... We all see it.

A decent coordinator will flex his scheme, play to his players strength. At this point and no matter how you slice or analyze it, our D does not. It's the same shit, different game day

Idiot Fan's picture

Oh, I'm totally with you on the defensive coaching. Except for 2010, the issues with our defense have always looked the same.

But regarding the cap, 25% is quite a bit when talking about 2 out of 53 players. If we want to be able to retain guys like Shields, then we have to be very careful when it comes to FAs.

Jameson's picture

I think the problem with TT isn't so much that he doesn't find some real talent in the draft. He has hit some pretty solid picks. He sticks to his philosophy come hell or high water and he doesn't really panic. Some good qualities for a GM.

TT has gotten some "steals" for us. He drafted Aaron Rodgers with the 24th pick. He moved up to take Clay. He got Lacy in the second round. So yeah he seems to have the ability to find good players at bargain places. For that he does deserve some praise.

But then when we have a high draft picks we go with BJ Raji, AJ Hawk, and Justin Harrell. None of which have lived up to their first round/early round (all drafted 16th or higher) selection.

Then we use 2nd rounders for the likes of Brian Brohm, Brandon Jackson, Patrick Lee, and Daryn Colledge.

I mean yeah a few of them contributed to the Packers, but none were really 2nd round worthy picks. BB may be the biggest head scratcher. We use a 2nd rounder on a back up QB when Aaron Rodgers was our starter and Matt Flynn was our back up? I realize he might have been preparing for Matt Flynn's eventual contract to end and him to walk, but still, a 2nd rounder?

Drafting is not a science and I get that. There will be hits and misses. There will be a Tom Brady in the 6th round that goes out and becomes an elite QB. There will be the undrafted free agent who comes in and makes the hall of fame.

But TT seems to have a knack for positions like WR where he seems to hit a home run every time and seems to fail repeatedly in areas like linebacker and offensive/defensive line where he strikes out at an alarming rate.

I don't know if it is the scouts or TT but someone is missing the ability to evaluate NFL talent at some key positions.

Overall I'm not sure I can say TT is above average in draft picks. I'd say he's more average and that's a problem since that's how he insists on building his team. Nearly every single player that has played the last two years has been his draft picks. Hardly a testimony to his skills at selecting players considering how yesterday went.

I do think some of those guys who are performing kind of poorly are talented. They just don't fit into what we do here in Green Bay. But again that should be part of the evaluation process.

And if he refuses to even look at free agency than he needs some better scouts because a whole lot of his drafted players aren't getting it done for us. Average won't cut it with the draft and develop only technique. He needs to be hitting better at some key positions or we're going to continue to put forth games like yesterday.

2 share owner's picture

Brian brohm and Matt Flynn were drafted in the same year. 2nd and 7th rounds. hard to take anything you say seriously when your bashing consists of incorrect information which is basically common knowledge for most of the posters here.

redlights's picture

Dude, don't comment if you don't know what you're talking about.

Brohm was drafted in the 2nd round of the same draft that brought Flynn in the 7th. It was the first year that Rodgers started, and it was their backup plan.

25% cap commitment on a $125 million cap equals about $80 million divided by 60-70 players (53 active; practice squad and IR). Little more than $1 million each; you don't stockpile much talent at that level.

I support TT. The biggest upgrade to the D was by drafting Eddy Lacy. Take time off of the clock to rest the D. Without AR, D's are stacking the box to stop Lacy; and our QB2's can't overcome it. AR coming back, will help the D; a new DC for anything short of a NFC championship berth; a couple changes or injury recoveries, and GB will in top form next year.

4thand1's picture

It is great to read a comment that actually makes sense in here. Most bloggers reactions are , Fire everyone, we are going to miss the playoffs! Redlights you nailed it, thank you.

Tundraboy's picture

I agree but DC has to go either way.

RunAndHyde's picture

Well......at least Nick Perry made a play hahaha.

RC Packer Fan's picture

If it wasn't for Perry, the game would have looked worse then it did. Imagine that...

Stroh's picture

I've said REPEATEDLY that the Packers need to move Perry to ROLB. His pass rush is SOO much better on that side and Matthews played LOLB in the '10 SB season, so we know he can excel on either side. At least gotta mix them up and switch them around some. Hell that alone would be a nice change up for offenses to deal with.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Yeah, i agree with you Stroh. I said that as well. To me when you have a player productive in a certain role. You keep him in that role. Pretty simple actually...

The thing I don't like with Capers is he gets set in his ways and doesn't change anything. I know that players have to make plays, but when your players aren't making plays, sometimes you have to change the scheme or package to put players in better positions to make plays.

That is my biggest gripe with Capers.

Wenis's picture

This Packers team will get torched by Atlanta next weekend. I have seen more fight out of my son's Pop Warner football team.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Is that with Rodgers playing or not playing?

Morgan Mundane's picture

Is there any difference between the performance yesterday and the one against the 9ers in the playoffs. DId they not set a record for most offensive yards ever gained in a playoff game? The only difference is we had Rogers playing so we scored some points and were in the game for a while but the defense gave up points faster than we could have gained them back.
Had that game gone 10 more minutes the 9ers would have put up another 14 so it was not close by any means. and this was not addressed in the off season to any extent.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Big time difference. The 49ers game the Packers were in the game until late. Also the Packers scored more then 3 points on offense...

Yeah the defense didn't play well, but honestly this game was more on the offense then the defense. Defense scored more points then the offense. The Defense created 4 turnovers. If the offense was able to capitalize on that, it would have been a different game.

Morgan Mundane's picture

I looked at the stats thus far to date from Fox and its interesting. The biggest tacklers on this team, other than Hawk who is way ahead of anyone else, is out dbacks. Our linebackers aren't even on the map.
Datone, our number one pick has 8 tackles. 8 freekin tackles the entire season.
IF our dbacks are making the most tackles that means people are going through our defensive line like water through a screen. The action is happening way past the line of scrimmage.
Its not Raji, Jolly and Picket stopping plays and making tackles on this team as designed by Capers.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Stats can tell you things, but don't tell you the whole picture...

Hawk leads the team, but he is one of the few LB's that has played the whole season.
Jones missed what 3 games? Mathews missed 4 games and Perry missed 5 games? When you have multiple people playing those positions won't have the most stats.

What i would like to see though, is per position what the number of tackles are.
That will be more telling then individuals.

stormin's picture

Maybe TT has a lousy player evaluation and scouting department that needs to be addressed.He has to be getting this terrible advice from somewhere.

TommyG's picture

He's done well at WR, RB, and OLB. The O-line and Safeties, not at all.

RC Packer Fan's picture

At first Thompson was bad at OL, but lately. He has done pretty good. Sitton, Lang, Bakhtiari are all 4th round picks, and all have been very productive. Sitton is a pro bowler, and honestly, i think Lang has been playing at a pro bowl level this year at RG.

Not really his fault that Sherrod and Bulaga have been hurt. Also the fact that he found Barclay and EDS have been great finds as non drafted players.

Bart's picture

Sure would like to see Sherrod get some playing time. The O'line pretty much sucks and I can't see where he would be any worse on one leg as some of these other goofs are on two. Some game action may accelerate his recovery and give the team an idea of where he stands going into next year. As for the D'line I could care less if they re-sign Raji. He stands around a lot and has become the proverbial "dancing bear".

Cpheph1's picture

Sherrod played late in Turkey Day game...so maybe he gets more PT from here on.

Barutan Seijin's picture

Be careful what you wish for.

Thegreatreynoldo's picture

If Sherrod is healthy, GB needs to give him some playing time to see what we have at OT. Need to see a healthy Perry and Neal at OLB, Worthy with his re-molded body, Richardson and Banjo at S, Bostick at TE. It will help with planning for the draft and FA next year.

The TKstinator's picture

I am glad they have some game tape on Sherrod. Tough to think he isn't already better than 74.
Raji? Who knows? I'm sure they have enough grades on him to know what they want to offer. Or not offer. I thought he was a run stuffer? What has been happening with that for the past month?

Cpheph1's picture

Concur on Sherrod. JSOnline reported Pack has an $8m offer to Raji.

Stroh's picture

Playing too much nickel w/ only 2 DL that's what happened. If you watched the game vs Det and for most of the past month, except maybe Minn, they seem to be playing 2 DL far too often. Seems more like 85-90% of the time. I'm sorry but its impossible to stop the run w/ 2 DL in the game. Even when Det was running out the clock in the 4th qtr they had only 2 DL playing. I don't care how good the DL are, your not going to stop the run w/ a 2 man DL.

The TKstinator's picture

Too much nickel with 2 DL's. When the opponent is running the ball on every play and running the clock out. Maybe that's what MM was referring to a couple weeks ago when he talked about a "recurring theme"? I believe that is how he phrased it.

I want to believe that our starting front 7 is capable of stuffing the run. Do you think they are? This is where I would love to see the grades the coaches have been handing out these last several weeks!

Stroh's picture

Yeah I think we have the players in the front 7. I like our DL going forward and don't see the need to draft DL, if we can find a playmaking ILB or if Lattimore is as good as he looked when he played for Jones. I said from Lattimore's first start he should be ahead of Jones. An outstanding Safety is a strong possibility in the top of the draft.

RC Packer Fan's picture

Yeah, I have been saying the same thing Stroh that they have been playing to much Nickel. I personally would like to see them change the nickel. Not run strictly 2-4 front. Maybe change it to a 3-3 or do a 3-4 and remove a safety.

That is my problem with Capers. He doesn't react to what is happening to him. People run all over him with 2 DL, so why not add a 3rd and remove a player somewhere else...

I would say we might need another run stuffer DL if they lose Pickett or Raji. Raji should be moved to NT IMO.
I have said the same thing as Lattimore too. IMO he should be starting ahead of Jones. I'm guessing he isn't as assignment sure as Jones, but he is far more of a playmaker then Jones. He should be starting.

Definitely need a Safety. Some sort of a ball hawking safety would be nice.

dawg's picture

Nothing against Capers, But times up,
Love Smith!

Stroh's picture

Screw that I hate the Tampa 2 and its zone coverage on EVERY f'in play. I want more man and press coverage, not a sit back in zone and make them drive the length of the field. That's what the Tampa 2 Defense the Love Child employs is designed for! Passive zone coverage all day long!

Talk about bend but don't break! The Tampa 2 is the epitome of it!

dawg's picture

Lovie Smmith

Not a head coach, BUT a very good D coach!
Lovie come to GB

Now what the fuck do we do w/ Campen?

I'd show tapes of his HFL carrier. BUT there is none!, neither of his coaching!

Slcwcom , is an artist, and is starting to draw unemployment at of end of the season!

Just sayin!

Stroh's picture

If you want bend but don't break go ahead and hire LoveChild. If you knew anything about football you would know that's what Lovie uses on D. Tampa 2 and non stop passive zone!

dawg's picture

Ohh Stroh,
If U only you knew Football, someday you can watch enough and learn how football is really played! Someday!

dawg's picture

Ha Gotch ya!

The TKstinator's picture

Tampa 2 also relies on the front four generating pressure. Not much blitzing. Sure tackling limiting yards after the catch. Do we have the personnel to do that?

TommyG's picture

I'll answer that; NO!

packeraaron's picture

Actually, if YOU knew anything about football Stroh, you'd know that during his last few years in Chicago, Lovie barely ran Tampa 2.

RC Packer Fan's picture

While I think Lovie would make a great D-Coordinator, and he might not have ran the Tampa 2 as much, I personally wouldn't want him. Mostly because he primarily is known for the 4-3.
I think the 3-4 is overall the better scheme just need someone else to call the shots. Capers is way to conservative. He doesn't do a very good job of reacting to what is happening to him during games. How many times have we seen WR's tear us apart and he doesn't do anything different to change.
And when you watch our defense, something we have had problems with for along time is players getting mixed up in coverage's. That is a coaching problem.
I don't like to call for coaches heads, I think it is time to look in a different direction then Capers.

Stroh's picture

It was still his base D, just like the Packers play a 34 but rarely line up in a 34 formation. As Urlacher became unable to get into deep zone coverage Lovie moved away from it, but it was still his base D. He just created wrinkles to adapt to the players. Its not like he employed man coverage much if at all.

dawg's picture

Yep +1

dawg's picture

Campen
After last yrs 51 QB sacks, an NFL record ,how do you become ominousness?

dawg's picture

Stroh
Of course I know nothing of football, as you suggest!
BUT, I do know something about character, and you sir, dont have any!
I watched this blog for many years, , and many others, and am amazed at how many times you attach fellow fans as if they are your enemy, or so called fans of ignorance!
Stroh, we are fans first and foremost, and do not want to put up with bullshit with bullying bastards who might have a degree in asshole macroeconomics.
We are all here to expresses our feelings, and thats what makes this place special!
Please dont take that away

Stroh's picture

Ahhh poor little baby. I thought this was mostly grown men and a few women. Didn't know you weren't man enough to take a little criticism! If you gonna suggest something like hiring Lovie you should at least know something about the Defense he employs.

Paul Ott Carruth's picture

Tampa 2 is not a passive defense. Corners will press and will bail to read. All NFL teams pattern match. Spot dropping doesn't happen anymore. Coverage wouldn't get to the ball. Most busts in zone occur due to miscommunication on passing off receivers. Zone essentially is late man coverage.

The TKstinator's picture

Tell me more about spot dropping and pattern match.

Also, is there much schematic difference in how teams defend the run? Run fits, gap responsibilities? I am thinking teams that shut down the run is more about personnel than scheme. I have been wrong plenty of times before though.

Stroh's picture

It is a passive zone. Sure they press at the LOS, but then they drop into the zone and read and react. I consider most zone coverages to be passive in nature due to the fact that they wait for action to occur before they act on what they see. Much prefer a defense that dictates the action, a la man, especially press man, where they try to remove that player from the route tree and in turn the passing game.

Either way the logic of the tampa 2 is to play deep zone coverage allow short passing and force the offense to drive the length of the field. The pass rush is suppose to help necessitate that, but any team willing to be patient and take what the D gives can drive on the tampa 2. It used to work to success but teams have figured it out. Just be patient, take what the D gives you and methodically drive the ball. Tampa 2 allows it and hopes for the offense to make mistakes or penalties to sabotage the drive. It doesn't force the offense or dictate play.

dawg's picture

It's all about communication on the defense as a whole-Period!
And then executing it! Physically!
Which is not happening!
Sorry to say, I feel Capers is not a great
communicator!
Hench the break downs on the D .
Keep it simple stupid!
They are 20 yr, olds for god sake!!

dawg's picture

Kinda like Stroh, only w/ a brain!

dawg's picture

What I ment was, God forbid, If srtoh was to play, or intereact, we'd be back in the stone ages!

dawg's picture

Stroh, You are a brother from another Mother!

dawg's picture

ha

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