A voice of experience and reason... nice take ken.

Two quibbles...

One... Eddie lee ivery should not be on your list of never-was rb who can't hold Aaron Jones jock. He was a stud and a really great runner who succumbed to the shitty turf at Soldier field TWO times with very serious knee injuries. Oh what he could have done with healthy knees...

Two... Firing of Joe Barry right now is the right thing to do. Getting new leadership can bring out the talent and desire that has been stifled under Barry and his loser schemes. Sometimes change is completely justified and for the better and another warm body in place of the Joe Barry corpse would be an improvement.

Thanks for the intelligent read with no analogies, metaphors or similes. I have had enough pop culture references in Packer articles lately... you know what im talking about...

I think it is time to move on from Aaron Rodgers after this season, regardless of the salary cap hit. Beyond that, I'm not sure. We'll see how the season plays out. But I do think there needs to be serious discussion about starting over with a whole new coaching staff. As for Gutekunst and Murphy, I don't know. They bet the farm on Aaron Rodgers and lost. Is that a fireable offense? I'm not convinced it is. I still think there is a good nucleus of talent on this team, even without Aaron Rodgers.

Good Points. But Rodgers actually will make less than Love next year, per game. And thats if they pick up the 20 mil. plus gamble, Loves going to get.
If Love starts as opposed to Rodgers; it will hurt the development of these Rookie WRs for years to come. And maybe any new drafted TE.
Love hasn’t played. Rodgers has. Experience is the best teacher.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Ken. I'm old enough to remember them all and as a little 7 year old boy watching the Cowboys / Packers game with my Dad when Tom Brown intercepted Don Meredith's pass in the endzone to send the Packers to the first ever SB. Oh, the GOOD times...

I also remember EVERY QB you listed including Rich Campbell...Just OMG!!! Then again they were all OMG followed by a huge UGH!! Starting over is never an easy thing, especially starting from scratch.

But the difficult thing, the real ball-buster in all of this is what Murphy and Ball have dome to this teams FUTURE. They were so hellbent on winning one more at ALL costs to the future, they've totally screwed this teams future. Gute TRIED to set this team up for the future but was overruled at every turn by Mark Murphy. I actually feel a little sorry for Gute. He worked his entire career to get his dream job only to have Murphy CHANGE what had made the Packers so successful (GM runs the team) for the previous 25 years before he got the job. Nope, Murphy HAD to fuck it up.

I honestly don't know where the Packers go as the 2022 season comes to an end. What I do know is Joe Barry IS NOT a Defensive Coordinator. I know Matt LaFleur doesn't know how to stand up to his ego-maniac QB and isn't much of a leader of men. I'd also add until Murphy steps down OR, gives ALL control over the Football Team back to the GM (Gute or someone else). The SOONER you stop pushing EVERYTHING into the future, the sooner this franchise can be back on top.

BUT, it all starts with Murphy making decisions on giant ass slides and NOT the Packers roster, coaches, or ANYTHING related to the product on the field.

Very good take. But SOME change is needed and healthy. The trick is to recognize an issue and change it before it seaps into a locker rooms culture.

DEFENSE: Joe Barry and his passiveness is starting to take over. We saw an aggressive group of defenders last year, even while playing these damn zones. But this year, defenders are waiting for the action to come to them. During tackling, when the ball is in the air, even by just lining up 10 yards off receivers. We NEED to blow up that side of the ball.

OFFENSE: This team outside of maybe Cobb and Jones has appeared to have quit. In the past several weeks I have seen Watkins, Watson, and Lazzard all quit or pull up on their routes. You cant tell me the coaches havent seen this on tape, yet it continues. Has the staff done anything to correct this? if they allow it, it will continue and become ok in Green Bay to halfass things. I get the impression from LaFluer that he is loyal to a fault. A trait we saw in Mike McCarthy. If he cant separate the relationships from the job and demand excellence from his staff and players, change is needed there as well.

I would LOVE to see MLF step up, demand, and make change. But right now he seems like he can only operate from a front runner position. As things are getting tough, we dont see any adaptability or accountability.

I’ve been saying it for 2 years. It’s Groundhog Day. It’s no longer entertaining. Blow the whole thing up. Get real professionals to run this thing, not Ted Thompson minions, arm-flappers and ass kissers. I’m tired of freaking reruns year after year after year……

I’m 72. I lived through Lombardi and all the crap years. I’m willing to go through more crap years to take some risks and maybe get a Super Bowl worthy team before I croak. Just no more of this soft as mashed potatoes product they have been trotting out the last few years.

Ken, I’ve been around for those years and remember those coaches and players. This doesn’t have to be a total blow up, but I disagree on a couple things. Joe Barry has got to go. His scheme and getting players to play in a position that suites their skills is not going to cut it. He was a bad hire. I don’t see this team improving with him as the DC. At seasons end he needs to be replaced. Not necessarily with Gray, but if not, there are plenty of defensive coaches from the college and Pro ranks that would be better. Second, Rodgers should start until the next loss. After that, nothing is gained from letting Love still ride the bench. No one knows for sure what they have in Love. Even coaches cannot say with 100% accuracy that he can’t be a starting caliber QB. I didn’t say HOF, All-Pro, or Pro Bowl QB. Just starting caliber. Let’s see what they have. They only reason they wouldn’t is ego. If that’s a part of personnel decision making, then this team will suffer longer. After a loss, find out if he has a legit future, if not, they can now plan accordingly and not wait another year. Or two.

I believe the difference in this team compared to those teams of the 70’s and 80’s is better overall talent. Those teams had some good players, but overall talent was lacking. They can make these changes without blowing up the whole team and see if there is improvement. If there is further decline, then it becomes easier to see where the problem resides.

Anytime one makes changes, there are only three possible results with only one positive:

1. Things get better.

2. Things stay the same.

3. Things get worse.

On the other hand is the definition of insanity:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

So where are the Packers? I'll take the chance and go with change.

Should we start over?

NO!

Lets assume the season ended today. What are the biggest things we need and what are the biggest changes that need to be made for next year?

1 - They have to get a new DC. Joe Barry is not the answer. I wish they would have gotten rid of Barry after the Titans game. They had a mini bye and they could have put Gray in as DC. What I would have liked about this is we could have seen how the players would have reacted to a change. I just feel like the players on defense are not being utilized to the best of their abilities. For example. When Stokes was healthy, why did they not have Stokes and Douglas outside with Alexander in the slot? Why are the DB's constantly playing 10+ yards off the ball when its 3rd and less then 10? doesn't matter if its 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 20, you will see our DB's playing 10 yards off the ball. I just don't get it.

2 - Offensive weaponry. I really like Watson, Doubs and Toure. They are rookies and hopefully take a big step next year. After them though what do we have at WR? Lazard, Watkins, Cobb. Watkins won't be back. Cobb, may not be back? Lazard I think is a free agent after the season but I can't remember off the top of my head. They have to get more weapons at WR. And they need more speed. Look at the difference Watson makes when he is on the field. Clearly its a different feel when he isn't on the field. They need to invest more high round draft picks into the position. And depending on the status of Lazard and Cobb, they may need to go out and find a veteran WR that could come in and provide some reliability.
Along with WR they have to improve the TE position. They need a field stretching type of TE. Tonyan is not the same as he was before his knee injury. He isn't explosive and can't make anyone miss. Deguara I like but they haven't used him as much as they should. Davis is jag. They need to invest into pass catchers for this team! They need a bigger weapon at TE.

3 - Pass Rushers. They have to get more pass rushers. With Gary out for the year you can see we are severely lacking a pass rush. Preston isn't a dominating pass rusher. He will get you a few really good reps in a game. He is very good at setting the edge, but he isn't a guy that will wreck and offense play in and play out. I really like Enagbare, but they need more.

4 - Return Specialist - They have to find someone who can put some fear into opponents. They need a shifty and fast returner. Maybe Nixon is that guy, but they they need to find someone. It was clear that Rodgers wasn't' the guy a year ago, but they stuck with him. They have to find someone that could possibly change games. Someone that can create a spark when the offense needs one.

5 - DB's. They have to improve our DB's. I like our trio of CB's. Nixon has been ok, but they need more depth at CB. Also they need to figure out what to do at Safety. Amos has regressed this year, and Savage has also. Perhaps some of this is the way they are being used? Perhaps our Safety's would look better with a different style of defense? But some of the things they are doing is fundamental things. Savage has missed a number of tackles. For our defense to take a step we need improved play at safety's.

These right now imo are the 5 biggest things we need to change for next year. It isn't a lot really. We need a different direction on defense. We have some very good players, but I think we need a better scheme and better leadership. On offense we just need more playmakers.

There's a story at Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel about a guy from Wisconsin Rapids who has been to 488 Packers games. It should be VERY enlightening to the younger fans who want complete change and are booing the team and don't understand what the older Packers fans know: we are very lucky to have a team here, the Packers are a global asset and you learn to live with the down times as well as the good times.

Eddie Lee Ivery: I'm outside the former Carlton West in Green Bay after a pre-season game. I was smoking a cigar. Up walks Eddle Lee. He wanted a cigar which I gave him and we chatted about the Packers for awhile. Nice guy. We went inside and he was mobbed by 20 women. I wasn't.

Lynn Dickey: he was hurt a lot, but when he was healthy, he was among the best passers in the league. One play is burned in my mind and showed how good the pros are. James Lofton did a post pattern then did an abrupt out. From my seat in the northeast corner I had a perfect angle to see Dickey loft a pass 50 yards down to a pinpoint. Lofton caught the ball two steps from the boundary without even raising his arms much.
Amazing.

Back to today: it's time to throttle back the rage and realize the Packers are a marathon and not a sprint. I know attention spans have dwindled to near nothing, but the key is patience. Even if they don't turn it around, at least there's great tailgating.

How right you are Ken! I remember. The best of times were seasons when we got near .500. A brief glimmer of hope with Lynn Dickey and then poof, nothing till the Majic Man, Through it all we fans persevered and supported the Pack. I wonder if 'modern fans' are even capable?

I just cringe every time I hear the clambering for Jordan Love. He is exactly, and nothing more, or nothing less than a place holder who will be out of the NFL inside of 3-4 years, after he's exhausted his 2 chances to show that he has all the same problems he did on draft day. Erratic accuracy, poor ball security, and he doesn't read the field well. Everything he'll ever be was on full display in any game he's played in. He's not 40% as good as Rodgers, and thru the entire preseason, every team we faced had better 2nd and 3rd string prospects on their rosters.

Are we ready to blow it up? We will return to the 70's so quickly in the post Rodgers era, it won't even be funny. Even with a superior talent at QB, this team is not winning. Put Love in there and it would be a nightmare from which we couldn't awaken.

Coaching changes perhaps? Hell Yes! We need a real DC, and a real OC. Enough screwing around here, Never liked Berry as a choice for DC, and talk about someone who's stock has plummeted? Adam Stenavich and his offense is abysmal. I'd be fine with the organization surfing the coaching fires post season for new a new OC and DC.

Also, Gutz is looking mediocre as a GM. Still need WR, TE, OLB, DL and now OL. The roster needs help.

Another thing, IMO, is that the Packers don't seem to plan for the team's veterans leaving. We didn't go after any of the top Safeties, in recent drafts. Guys that are playing now and will be solid additions to their teams, in the very near future. We will need someone to fill in Amos's spot on this team, when he leaves. Savage has been disappointing, as well. We will need Love to step up and fill in Rodgers's spot. At least he knows our system. Getting a veteran QB, does not seem likely, in FA, with our cap situation and especially when we can keep Love, at a much cheaper cost, to the team. I think our young WRs will do fine, over time. I think the WRs would do well with Love, as their QB, too. However the Packers need to win, now. Who will be our next Aaron Jones? Jones may be gone next season, mostly due to our cap situation, as he will want to be paid. We cut Kylin Hill for attitude issues. Is Patrick Taylor the answer as RB1or 2? I doubt that , very much. We need a TE to stand out. Someone who can play up to Marcedes Lewis's level of play. Someone who can do all the blocking this offense calls for, and someone who can move the chains. We need to tighten up our run defense and quit playing that god awful soft zone coverage that gets opposing teams easy 1st downs, on passing plays. Our STs still needs to be fixed. I like Nixon back there on returns. I think we need to look at replacing Crosby, at some point. Is Ahmed the answer, there? So many questions and not enough draft capital to fill the holes we will have when players leave.

Every player we release will have to be replaced on the roster. Including practice squad, that’s 69 people. Some people will be salary cap decisions. We have 7 draft picks. So unless we want to put a team on the field that’s mostly UDFAs, we’re going to have to resist the urge to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Gutekunst and LaFleur just received extensions, so they aren’t going anywhere. Accept that. Pretty much every guy who is under contract for next year will be back. We’ll add some guys in the draft.

Every time in the last 30 years that we’ve had a losing season we’ve had a quick rebound to the Championship game.

Ken you bring up fond memories of the not so golden years. Charles Martin body slamming McMahon to the turf and wrecking his shoulder. Walter Peyton running wild with over 200 yards rushing against them in the 70's The last game I saw. Lynn Dickey throwing to Lofton and Jefferson. It's too bad Dickey's knees were shot. The 1983 shootout at Lambeau where the Pack beat the defending champion Redskins 48-47. I remember "Pull Dickey!" "The Gravedigger" Gilbert Brown stuffing the middle. Paul Coffman, Mike Douglas. Chuck Cecil decimating receivers and himself. Larry McCaren busting that pinky. Travis Williams returning kicks. Bad years but a lot of good memories.

Solid take, Ken. I do think the Packers need to lovingly set Joe Barry free, but I agree with you that handing the reins to Jerry Gray would be misguided at best. Our Passing Game Coordinator has been AWOL, for sure. I also don't think LaFleur is the HC to lead going forward.

I, too, cringed through an era where Terdell Middleton and Will Harrell were referred to in a Packers Yearbook at "the Touchdown Twins", where Rich Moore was drafted in the first round, where every kickoff was at noon, and many seasons were spent striving to get to 8-8. We drafted poorly and kept trying to find "the next" great player from the 60s as the game evolved.

So, blow it all up? No, there's a ton of talent in Green Bay, but continuing on the present course with current leadership isn't the answer.

The fallacy here is that it’s already blown up. The question is whether or not you want to sit in the ruins and wish it hadn’t or start to think about building anew.

This is agonizing about whether to invest in a new gate after the horse is long gone.

Ken your article is among the reasons why I have been posting that I'm not sure how much Love will play this season even if/when the Packers are eliminated.

I prefer not to discuss what's next for the Packers until the season is over but here we are.

The Packers need to make several strategic decisions once this seasons ends.

If the Packers decide to rebuild they need to decide where they start the rebuild. Does it start at the top with Murphy or does it start with the GM or with the coaching staff. Personally I believe that if a team is going to rebuild they should start with the GM and the coaches similar to how Bob Harlan did it with Wolf and Holmgren. Then again later with TT and McCarthy. It is critical that the GM and HC are in alignment with the type of team they want to build and how they want to build it. If the rebuild starts with the players then IMO the team is doing nothing more than sophisticated tweaking.

As for the players I think that many of the veteran players Ken mentioned in his article will be gone next season rebuild or not. Some will be cap casualties, some will retire (BaK and Crosby), and maybe some will be traded (Jones). Once again Rodgers will be the key to the Packers short term strategy. If they decide to chuck him and take the cap hit the rebuild, at least at the players level, will begin. Rodgers might decide to retire which would help with the cap hit or he might decide to return to play again in 2023.

If Rodgers returns we can expect more tweaking and how do we replace players like Bak and Jones on the offense? Watkins and Cobb will be gone which means more young receivers acquired via the draft and maybe an FA veteran.

ON the defensive side regardless of which strategic decisions the team takes the Packers need a new DC. Barry is not working out. With 7 #1 picks on defense this defense should be playing much better. Unless our GM has failed badly on some of those #1 picks. In which case we are back to the question of where should the rebuild start?

I'm guessing that Murphy will remain until he retires in 2025/26? And what about Love? What if the Packers hang in the playoff race until the last week or two of this season and Love doesn't see much action? Do we bring in a new HC with a new offense for Love to learn in what could be his first season as the starting QB if Rodgers retires?

Ken is correct that rebuilds are long, difficult and messy. I've just touched upon a few of the myriad of issues the Packers will need to address regardless of which direction they decide to take. It also points out how much of a mess the current management has created for this team and I'm in no position to adequately discuss the cap implications for the next 2-3 seasons. We need TGR who sadly has not participated recently. And as I have posted before I don't believe that they can get the Packers out of this mess.

Do we really want to blow it all up? Not until the end of the season at least. Then we can discuss blowing it up in a series of articles that would address each of the factors of a complete rebuild. Thanks, Since '61

Man O Man,, I got cold sweats looking at the names you brought up from the deep past and yep, I lived those also which the cold sweats.. The motto back then was 8-8 is great and nothing is fine with devine.. You forgot one player that really hurt getting the 1, the 2, the 1,2,3 john hadl... ouch!! I use to pray when Harrell went back for a punt return to just don't fumble and catch it and fall down.. I think Rodgers has aged but I also think a lot of his problems this year besides the young receivers is his thumb.. So yep, to all my friends out there who call for a total fire job(much like my brewer buddies did this year) calm down, lets play out the season and if changes are needed, do them then.. Reload, don't rebuild as I saw the 70's and 80's rebuilt every 2 years.. YIKES.. The young receivers are getting better and the line will get figured out and the D,, well that might need fixing as in coaches.. I would love to see more man to man and a more active D line.. well lets finsih the season and look ahead folks

There's a big difference between rebuilding now as opposed to the early 70s and 80s. Free agency! Remember the first free agent? Reggie White. The parity in the NFL is such that you just need to find a piece or a coach (Mathew Stafford to the Rams for instance). Some teams screw this up time after time but, it doesn't have to be that way.

We don't need to rebuild the team. Just add a piece here or there in coaching and find a new Reggie somewhere.

Like Harry said above, it's hard to believe a Packer fan booing the team into the locker room at half time, down 14-6 and getting the ball. We used to brag that as bad as it got, we supported our team thru thick or thin. We pitied teams whose own fans booed them and thought it would never happen in Gree Bay.

How many GM/FO/coaching changes have the Bears had over the past 10-15 years or so? Detroit? Jacksonville? Houston? They're all still trying to figure it out after "blowing it up" every few years.

Over the last 30 years, 3 of the most successful franchises have been New England, Pittsburgh and Green Bay. What do they all have in common? They all maintain continuity throughout their organizations. Whether it's coaches...Belichick has been around for 20 years or so. Pittsburgh has had 3 HC's since 1969. Or QBs...Green Bay has had 2 starting QBs since 1992.

I was a little surprised how soon the "Let's Fire Everybody" crowd showed up this year. I believe it was right around the time we lost 2 games in a row for the first time in 4 years. That's how teams like Chicago, Detroit, Jacksonville and Houston operate. How has that worked out for them?

This team/organization does not need to be blown up. Joe Barry needs to be replaced. Murphy needs to allow Gutekunst to do his job without interference. MLF needs to stop deferring to Rodgers and prove he's more than an OC masquerading as a HC.

I know that will not appease a lot of the fans. But successful organizations don't allow fans to dictate to them how to do their jobs after one crappy season.

...My point is, don’t be in such a hurry for change. It’s not always the answer...

Change needs to happen if we are to stay ahead of the sticks. Hanging onto players too long, ignoring persistent failure or following poor strategies are all part of poor franchises. The Packers have been hanging onto a fading dream of another Super Bowl run with Rodgers for the last three years at the expense of the future and at the risk of the total rebuild that Ken cites. We didn't avoid the reset - we made it worse.

The Green Bay leadership committee went out and got themselves a new 'boy band' coach because hiring young playcallers from the Shanahan tree (?) was all the rage. Whether it is LaFleur or the committee that has been assembling the coaching staff is uncertain but the results are evident every game through the disorganized play and competitive outsmarting. The coaching failures are one aspect of the shortcoming facing this team. The bigger issue is the lack of organizational leadership for the franchise.

Ron Wolf led the Packers back from obscurity with a philosophy and the right people in the right places. As the architect, he pulled the pieces together to fashion a winning formula and got the right coaches to work with the formula. Howie Roseman is that guy in Philly. He is build the team according to his plan and making sure that coaches and players fit that plan. We have no such clarity on this team or in our front office.

Gutekunst is drafting track athletes because RAS scores are the moneyball metric tape measure for his Packers. We have track athletes rather than football smart players. What is our Packer formula? Not sure, but it isn't win in the trenches and it usually doesn't involve high draft or high FA offensive weapons. So my questions are who leads this Packer team going forward and what is the formula?

This is the Season that the Grinch stole from us! The best way to describe our coaching staff and GM. Stink, Stank, Stunk!

Ken I appreciate your input.

But I disagree with you. I was fan of "Ask Vic" column till moment I found it and till the end. I consider Vic very smart and experienced guy, who worked his whole life in football. He teach regular fans all those small, but important things in football - meaning of the SC, for example, importance of the draft choices and to be very careful when you are signing FA that other teams are releasing or did not sign for the future. He was rarely wrong.

One of his important mantra was: "If you need to rebuild, rather start earlier than later!" "When you hear whistle of the running SC train that comes to you, it is already to late!" and, maybe most important "It is better to release/trade player one year earlier than one year to late!". All those notes can apply to Packers today. Prolonging changes, those changes will last longer and you'll have it more and it will be difficult to finally dig yourself out of it. Second, by the move of the Mark Murphy he sped up those train and now the whistle is constantly blowing (Dallas game was just short interruption to fill the air in whistle). If we will wait the train to come on us, I bet with you rebuild will looks like Jags or Lions, or Bears one. Move from that track and left your baggage (and garbage) behind for train to hit them.

You do not need to start all over. Thanks to Brian Gutekunst. He was picking in the last 2 and 1/2 drafts for the future, not for the present. And you can not enforce your team with players that still have the necessary fire in themselves, because you do not have money for that. You are damned or blessed to use draft, because one Idiot trying to play GM (Mark Murphy) sold all necessities to one man, aging QB together with crippling "GM by position" (BG) and HC, taking from them what is their rights in hierarchy of football business. What he take from "his" GM and HC he surrendered gracefully to his QB. With those 3 moves (changing football operation, signing SC crippling contract and allowing QB to interact jobs of GM & HC with equal rights) Idiot completely messed up with every aspect of otherwise successful football franchise.

We do not need to blow up everything. Nobody from us, fans, do not call from building from the ground. We call for re-building. The meaning of re-building is that you have foundation(s) on which you will change what is old and worn out with something new and exciting, especially when your foundation was already rebuild - you have young OL (forget David in that formula, he is also to expensive), young WRs, young TEs, relatively young RBs, ILBs, CBs, DLs, OLBs... Only safety position should need some immediate addition - but, you have draft for that. You might miss, but not that much as you'll miss if you did not move yourself from the tracks of the coming ultrafast large train.

I do not want to go into discussion here about is it to early or to late to move from ACR, or to start JL, or to change that or this coach. First what Packers need to do is to go back to what was successful. Change the structure of the football operation back to successful model. Every day more and more fans understand that this, existing model is pure sh*t. Nobody can recognize who is responsible for what. Who make play calls? Can you tell us that? Is it MLF? Or maybe ACR? Or maybe both? DO they agree on play calling?

I would like to get answer from you on this question: DO YOU KNOW ANY FOOTBALL FRANCHISE IN NFL WHERE QB HAS FINAL WORD ON WHAT KIND OF PLAY PLAYERS WILL BE EXECUTE (EXCLUDING IN GAME ADJUSTMENT)? We knows from public statements that HC and "play caller" and his QB "possible real play caller" does not agree on what kind of plays Packers should run. So, who has the last word?

This franchise need clean up in huge way. FISH SMELLS FROM HEAD and you have to remove smelly heads first - GM (in this case real GM, GM from the shadow) & HC & QB. These are smelly heads. Let give crippled GM (BG) 2 years to show his vision of the Packers, let him pick his HC and let that HC pick his coordinators and QB who will be HC voice on the field. Than you have healthy foundation to have fast rebuild. Because you remove rotten foundations from the building.

That is my take. Not build from the scratch, but re-build from healthy foundations.

Let's remove Rodgers, then evaluate the rest of the players.
When it seems so many players are underperforming, then it may very well be that our domineering and temperamental quarterback is dragging down the team.

Just to be clear this isn't a question of blowing it up (although that may be a means to an end) this is a question of organizational leadership. The Packers find themselves in difficult CAP position with a last legs QB and numerous talent holes on the roster. Why did we get here? Surely, the leader of this franchise didn't map out a plan to pay crazy money for a singular player and not surround him with weapons or a solid O-line. Now that the popularity of hiring a young inexperienced headcoach has dissipated, someone must have given consideration to the mechanics of assembling a solid coaching staff beyond just a playcaller. The Packers don't need a new quarterback or headcoach - they need a new architect with a formula for building a new team.

The names bring back a lot of 4-12 seasons from the seventies. The names from the eighties bring up a lot 7-9 teams. I did like watching Lynn Dickey, Eddie Lee Ivory, Lofton and Jefferson and Coffman great offense! The one name you brought up that still haunts me to this day is Rich Cambell, The Packers drafted him two picks in front of Ronnie Lott in the 1981 draft! What might have been!

I've been over at Spotrac.com since reading this article. As it looks to me (don't take my word for it, check for yourselves). The bottom line is that RIGHT NOW, we're only about $3.5 million over the projected 2023 cap.

We have 45 players under contract for 2023. Rodgers, of course, and I don't see any way that we can mitigate the cap hit. It looks like about $30 million. Bakhtiari, too, looks like a $30 million hit, but $18 million of that is salary, and roster and workout bonuses. Aaron Jones has about $16 million in salary and bonuses. IMO, that would make Bakhtiari and Jones trade candidates. Even if we don't get much, it helps our cap situation quite a bit.

On offense, after those big $$ guys, we're bringing back Love, of course. Dillon and Patrick Taylor. Watson, Toure, Doubs. Deguara. That's our returning skill position players. Tom, Nijman, Runyan, Myers, Newman, Rhyan, Walker, Jones are the top 8 offensive linemen returning.

Defensively, we're bring back 15 guys. Amos is a FA. Lowry and Reed are FAs.

So, those are the holes. I count a couple on offense and a couple on defense....IF WE DON"T MAKE ANY MORE!! And that's without upgrading weaker players on the roster. If we do a couple of judicious trade downs, we can probably put a good 45 man team on the field.

At this point, I'd suggest that next year's starting offense looks like this: Love and Dillon in the backfield, Watson, Doubs, and Toure at WR, Deguara at TE, Nijman-Runyan-Myers-Newman-Tom on the offensive line. This is assuming we don't resign Lazard or Jenkins.

I'm in favor of exclusively firing Mark Murphy. He rebuilt the football structure so he is the last word, he made himself the owner. He built the roster, the coaching staff, and he is ultimately in charge of the contracts that will hobble the franchise for a decade. Murphy has to go.

Ken this is an award winning article. However...... I think you are being a little hard on TD Terdell Middleton, he was the man in those days!!! I so hope the young folks read this... especially our own beloved Andy Herman... his stuff has been a bit painful of late. Also a bit of a David Whitehurst apologist, really hate having him in the same category as Scott Hunter and Jerry Tauge, if they could have thrown a decent pass we would have taken that game against the Redskins. KEEP WRITING!!!! A while back I always wanted to ask Ted what would be more important to his legacy, winning another Super Bowl or successfully finding Aaron's replacement? As much as I hate to say it we need an asterisk for the Favre/Rodgers era that the Bears, Lions, and often Vikings sucked for 30 years. So now with our current cap situation, and having to figure out what to do with Jordan Love??? I think Mark needs to step in, put his big boy pants on, gather Matt, Brian, (sorry our financing guy), include Aaron and do some planning. With the sad truths about Favre, I think Aaron's complete legacy is not yet written, based on with what level of class he exhibits going forward. Green & Gold until I am Dead and Cold!!!

They are held hostage for at least one more year by AR's contract, which they signed and bought into. They have one year to get it done, and probably their best only shot for a long time.

- Given one more year of AR, it doesn't make sense to blow up the offense and go with new one. MLF stays.
- Defensive has no excuse to suck this year. Changes must be made there. Barry must go.
- AR will be better next year
-- Thumb will be better. It's clearly affecting him. He is one of the most accurate QBs in history and I never seen him miss easy passes like he did in the last game.
-- AR has an excellent memory. The offense currently runs has a lot of MM offense in it because that's what AR likes. It requires QB and WR to be on same page when running routes because the routes require QB and WR to make same adjustments. An extra year should help this.
-- OL should be better and can get more upgrades via draft or FA. If you want an old QB, then you need an awesome line and defense.

The time to get rid of AR was this past summer when they could have got a lot for him. They prepared for it with the selection of Love. They just didn't have the nerve to do it. Could have had plenty of draft capital to help the move.

MLF has lost this team. No motivation. I think Barry kills all motivation on defense. AR has too much say in offense and that will not change. MLF needs to take charge and be a HC.

I definitely remember the '70's and '80's teams. There were literally weeks I wouldn't watch the games, because it was too painful to see how bad the Packers were, how inept, how far they'd fallen from the heights of the Lombardi Era. The embarrassment of the team constantly going after retired Packers players as coaches. But the nadir of the franchise came during the Forrest Gregg regime, when this proud franchise turned into a group of thugs. Charles Martin, brandishing a towel with the numbers of Bears players on it, was the last straw. However, there are some real problems with the team. And it starts with Rodgers.
There seems to be a total disconnect between him and LaFleur. And Rodgers is winning, because the cap hit if he leaves would be so bad. If he left next year, the Packers would be on the hook for (I believe) $31 million in dead cap. But when, week after week, LaFleur says he has no idea how to fix the problems with the team, that is a huge problem. Give LaFleur a chance to play with a QB who will actually run his system, but also, make it clear that he needs to be able to change schemes to adjust to the other team's scheme changes. He has not shown he ever has a "Plan B" if the original plan starts foundering,
Fire Joe Barry? Absolutely. The players seem totally out of sync with the system. So, either get rid of the players, or (EUREKA!) find a scheme that takes advantage of the strengths of the players. How many times do we have to see Alexander playing eight yards off a receiver on third and three before something changes?
In short, blow up everything? No. But change what isn't working and try something new. Or else, keep doing the same thing, and hope for different results.

It's natural for people to hide failure. Lies, deceit, procrastination...name the transgression--it is sure to hide the pain within. Change only happens when pain exceeds the desire to change. We've acquired, in our PTSD annals, the Catch Part II, 4 & 26, Bostick's bumble, etc etc. We've fielded a competitive team most years since our last SB in '10, but the latest sample size of getting owned, with homefield, by more physical, better coached teams has now rung true thrice. Taking away the exquisite QB/WR combo that has masked flaws on every level (performance, drafting, coaching) has only given a glimpse of how septic things have become beneath the skin.

I give Packer fans credit for being resilient; however, decades of success have blinded the fanbase to accept perennial media induced arrogance suggesting every player we sign or draft is the next best thing since sliced bread. Murphy will see to it that the Packer's remain profitable, with the product on the field secondary. Gutekunst will continue to perform adequately, but not enough to facilitate a championship squad. MLF has shown he can't hire, can't fire, and perhaps most damning, can't inspire; he'll fail to make in-game adjustments, and he'll continue to privately play second-fiddle to the real head coach of this team--HoF#12. As they say, as goes Rodgers, so does the Packers. So where are we at Ken? How much more should we take living out the script of insanity? Wise investors cut losses early as BIG losses start small.

Whether or not total change is the answer depends on how the last few games play out and if any changes in approach are actually made.

With this team, you don't even get the novelty of seeing them lose in different ways because they lose in the same ways every time. On offense, short-yardage running plays in critical times that they can't block; the QB heaving balls downfield to receivers with DBs practically attached to them; predictable play calling that defenses are ready for more often than not; on defense, playing musical chairs with secondary instead of doing what is logical, and worst of all, an abundance of soft coverage that allows for easy conversions.

So if the same patterns continue, the process of starting over can't come soon enough. The Rodgers era has run its course. "Draft and develop" has run its course. It's nice that we broke our losing streak, but if the team continues to struggle the way it did against the Titans and others, then not making wholesale changes guarantees more of the same. Acknowledge reality and abandon any short-term hope or "chance" with the current cast.

The Bengals, Lions, and new Browns have been saddled with poor ownership through significant portions of their history, so those are really worst-case scenarios in regards to rebuilding.

Gute has done a decent, but not great job. He's made some nice signings, but his upper-round drafting has been a mixed bag. And he is too much in love with his picks--the Savage option is a great example.

Which is preferable: The five or six-win veteran-laden team with the old hat coaching staff or the three or four-win rebuilding team with a couple years of high draft picks, a fresh approach, and a (hopefully) bright future?

At this point, the Packers may not be able to cut the cord on this situation with a meat cleaver, but will have to settle for methodically nibbling through like a rodent....

Reboots are indeed difficult to endure and as Ken stated, they are nothing close to a certainty. I am not sure the team really needs to "blow it up", but in a manner of speaking that is ostensibly the case in the NFL with respect to QB position. It's rare in the modern era that a team can take home the Lombardi Trophy with only a "game manager" (e.g., Trent Dilfer type, for those who remember him). Every once in awhile a team with a top-5 defense and top-5 running game will do it; e.g., Denver sort of did that with an end-of-career PM, but Peyton was still Peyton and could show his mettle when it mattered. But this is certainly less prevalent now than in decades past. You really need a star QB, but not necessarily HOF-caliber, to get there. That's why teams are wiling to put 25% of their cap into that position's salary. As discussed ad nauseum over the past several years, GB is again sorting through that with respect to the team's future. Until we have a clear plan there, the rest of the discussions may be academic, except of course, for GM. By extension, as some have stated, in GB that implies team president since the Prez has control over GM and thus personnel decisions. I will not even address HC because while it's very important role, I do not think it necessarily gates the two more important pieces, but rather the other way around. So it boils down to: how do you feel about Gutey? If he has shown you enough for you to believe he can be the guy to guide the team through talent acquisition to the "next level" then he's the guy we need, and maybe Murphy can stay if he also lets Gutey be the primary selector of HC. Unfortunately that's not the structure now, so if you like Gutey but don't like Murphy, the Board would have to make that change in structure and ask Murphy politely to "retire". I don't see that happening soon, but who knows. As for the QB, Arod has the management "by the short hairs" with his recent extension. If he decides he's had enough of this not just in GB but as a career and retires, that makes the decision "easier" and the Packers don't have the immense albatross around the neck in the form of $50M towards the cap. That kind of money can get you at least one top-tier FA's at a different position and help extend your best players for the future. Of course then the team will be forced to either pay Love the $20M to give him a full "try out" season while necessarily investing a draft pick in 2023 on QB, or they can refuse to go that route because they already have their answer on Love in their minds and instead they an seek a mid-tier vet FA at the position - a guy who can be a game manager - one you could win with when paired with the running game and defense (no certainty on the latter part, however, at this time). Considering the huge cap hits at key positions such as QB, OT, and even RB (though I gotta believe they stick with Jones), unlike other teams who have turned a reboot into success in relatively short time (1-3 years), by hitting on all the right moves (GM, HC, personnel, ...), I don't see how 2023 version of our Packers looks any rosier no what changes happen or do not happen w.r.t. Prez/GM/HC and QB given the team's relative unhealthy salary cap. 2024 or beyond is a different matter, but the list of unknowns grows larger as additional personnel decisions must be made on expiring contracts. Whatever happens, they're still my Packers and I will follow them and root for them - and I'll try not to gripe too much, but I think as caring "fans" (and some paying ticket holders) we have a right to do some of that. :)

Positive change shouldn't be invoked unless there exists an internal capability to effect it. Ever since Murphy appointed himself the supreme leader of the football operation - the team has remained in stasis and now regression. As an agent of change -Murphy has failed miserably. Also the Executive Committee should be indicted for their complicity in Murphy's action(s). So should the team be "blown-up"? I think that the question is moot - as the team seems to have already imploded. The bigger question for me is how do we entrust the re-construction or re-build of the team to the same person who has been principally responsible for its deterioration?

Many great points here being made. However, because of Rodgers big contract, the renewals of the GM and HC, and MM tethered to all of it, I think the best we can hope for if this season keeps trending downward is starting next year with some new coordinator’s.
We will probably be saying goodbye to a handful of high cap veterans to garner a bit of draft capital and some needed cap relief as well. Other than that and signing low cost depth in FA, nailing our number one overall pick while hitting on a couple others, I think we’re gonna be stuck riding this thing out. I wish we could’ve done more this past offseason (like trading Rodgers), but that ship has sailed. Perhaps 12 will retire? Who knows.

Let's not blow it up completely. Imho mark Murphy and his power structure is terrible. Everyone report to me, but I won't make final decisions, but report to me. Dumb 4 years ago, dumb now.

And we gotta jettison Aaron Rodgers. His salary is an albatross which will only hurt the Packers every additional year he's on the team. I'm not saying he's washed, but what I am saying is he too much of a wild gun and MLF won't reign him in. We all know why.

Go Pack Go!

I think it is pretty clear that this team has enough talent to be better than 4-7. That means it on the coaches.

MLF has failed. He had the team to get to a SB and lost it by not firing Drayton. Everyone can see his man Barry isn't it. But why hasn't MLF stepped in and make him play the CB's tighter. It all goes back to MLF. Play calling this year is very mediocre. Receivers don't seem to be coached well either. Again, back to MLF though. So add that all up with an aging qb (with a sore thumb?) and you get 4-7.

No need to blow it up - except coaching.
And if AR doesn't return to better form, it won't make a difference.
So IR AR. If he wants to come back next year, we have no real choice but we need to see if we need to draft a qb. I don't hear AR saying RELAX. This season is over.

Even though preseason WR looked promising, it was probably too much to hope that they would excel. But I like having Watson and Doubs going fwd for their year2. (Though Davante's year2 was scarey).

My guess is they take the 'safe' way out and only sit AR after being eliminated mathematically.

What one move and all the trickle down from doing it would be the biggest bang for your buck? New HC.

MLF is who he is and you’re expecting him to change and become a man’s man, a inspirational leader of men, a charismatic pied piper that magnetically people want to follow, put his foot down and get Barry to coach with some stone….that’s the definition of insanity. The truth is it’s not a cliche that the teams take on the personality of the HC.

We do need a new DC! Also believe as much as Stenovich did well on the Offensive line, he's doing the opposite as OC. Butkus as a Line coach is also an issue basically the same personnel on offensive line; has regressed under Butkus. I am not sure what opposing Defenses have discovered but it seems like they always know what is coming! We run basically same offenses as Denver, LA Rams all have been bad this year. Our coaching staff should be hired to get promoted elsewhere as this will ensure having the best coaches in the best positions.

Ken, the Packers did not start over with Bengston - the core of the SB II team was still in place, but it was old and in some cases hampered by poor drafting by Lombardi. The reset happened after Kramer, Starr and others retired. Devine took them to the playoffs in 1972, with Scott Hunter at QB, although the offense was run-heavy The reset with Starr was successful at first - remember, he took them to the playoffs and beat the Cards in 1982.

Many of the doldrum years are down to poor QB play, poor FO, and poor GMs, Drafting was more often crap than good.

The best example of a "blow it all up and start again" was 1991-1992. Had Harlan not hired Ron Wolf, who started that reset, then the successes of the 90s up to 2021 would quite probably never happened. Being afraid of changes, even on a massive scale, will almost always lead to failure.